Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Limit Texas Hold'em > Micro-Limits

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 04-08-2004, 09:37 AM
Zetack Zetack is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 656
Default Re: Everyone who wants to \"charge the flush draws\" PLEASE READ

[ QUOTE ]
I check-raised the flop to, as the mantra goes, to charge as much for the flush draw as possible.

This "charge the flush draws" mantra has annoyed me for a year and a half now.

I'm not 100% sure where this idea first appeared, but I think I know. It does not appear in 2+2 books... but it does appear almost word-for-word in a popular book on low-limit hold 'em of suspect quality.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Ed, if you're going to say something like this go ahead and identify the book please. Some of us may be relying on it. I know, that may feel unseemly, and I don't know if for some reason its bad to offend other authors, but my feeling is if you're going to voluntarily wade into a subject either give us advice that helps us or leave it alone.

I immediately assumed you were talking about a low limit hold em book I have, because I'm not familiar with any other books specifically aimed at low limit and because that book fequently gets dissed around here.

However, going back and looking at that book I can't find that phrase in it. (I didn't re-read it word for word just looked at the places I thought that phrase would be likely to come up.) Since that book seems to say the right things about playing against flush draws I'm not sure if I've just missed the phrase in it somewhere or you are talking about another book.

You get a ton of respect around here, including from me. If you are in fact saying that a book on low limit hold em that I think is pretty solid, is actually "suspect" I'd really like to know.

--Zetack
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-08-2004, 09:52 AM
blackaces13 blackaces13 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 728
Default Re: Just a bad beat right?

Limping in LP with a suited king isn't that bad PF is it? I often limp with such hands in Party .5-1. Granted he was the second one in the pot which isn't so great but if he can reasonably expect the button and both blinds to come along without a raise then I think he's gettting his money's worth here.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-08-2004, 10:02 AM
blackaces13 blackaces13 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 728
Default Re: Everyone who wants to \"charge the flush draws\" PLEASE READ

The book he speaks of is obvious. However, I feel that this book gets a bad wrap here because the author NEVER says that you are making it incorrect for the flush draws to continue or that they should fold. In fact, the author does specifically state that the lessor draws and lower pairs are "subsidizing you both". This appears on Page 87 of the text in question.

However, the idea of "charging the flush draws" isn't really THAT bad because there is less than a 50% chance of the flush draw getting there. So the more you pump the pot the more you stand to make in the long run, its the opposite of giving a free card. So you're not charging him to get him out or make it wrong for him to call, more bets are good for both of you, as is stated in the book I speak of. However, since the flush will only hit 35% of the time why not have a bigger pot for yourself when it doesn't hit. You're charging the calling stations, it benefits the both of you.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-08-2004, 10:04 AM
Zetack Zetack is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 656
Default Re: Just a bad beat right?

[ QUOTE ]
Limping in LP with a suited king isn't that bad PF is it? I often limp with such hands in Party .5-1. Granted he was the second one in the pot which isn't so great but if he can reasonably expect the button and both blinds to come along without a raise then I think he's gettting his money's worth here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is. You're making a lot of assumptions if you are counting on every remaining player to come in.

Also, even if you have the requisite limpers already in, I've been thinking about K-x suited a lot since Joe Tall mentioned in a post that he doesn't play it. And the more I think about it, the more I think that A-x suited is much better than K-x suited. So give me a real good reason to jump in with K-x suited--like a lot of limpers.

--Zetack
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-08-2004, 10:09 AM
blackaces13 blackaces13 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 728
Default Re: Just a bad beat right?

I look at it this way, and I'm sure this a BAD way to look at it but I'm good at rationalizing things to myself that may be harmful. Unless someone in the hand has the ace of your suit AND has another card of that suit in their hand, then Kxs IS Axs. As long as we're agreeing that almost all the value of the hand comes from flushdraws or 2-pair or better.

The more I think about it the less that makes sense since there could be a 4-flush on the board. However I still think Kxs has a lot of value in LL hold 'em. And it is true that unless another player has Axs in your suit, which is very rare, then your hand is ALMOST like having Axs.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-08-2004, 10:16 AM
Zetack Zetack is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 656
Default Re: Everyone who wants to \"charge the flush draws\" PLEASE READ

[ QUOTE ]
The book he speaks of is obvious. However, I feel that this book gets a bad wrap here because the author NEVER says that you are making it incorrect for the flush draws to continue or that they should fold. In fact, the author does specifically state that the lessor draws and lower pairs are "subsidizing you both". This appears on Page 87 of the text in question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I read that when looking for the charging the flush draws language. Do you see that anywhere in this book? So it is the one that Ed is saying is suspect?

--Zetack

Oh, wait, he says: "A player who calls your bets or raises when he has flopped four to a flush is not making a mistake. However, if you check and let him draw at his flush for free you are giving him infinite odds on his draw...which is far better for him than your charging him a bet for his draw." WLLHE p. 86-87 (italics in original, bold added).

Damn, I guess this is the book Ed is talking about.

Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-08-2004, 10:30 AM
blackaces13 blackaces13 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 728
Default Re: Everyone who wants to \"charge the flush draws\" PLEASE READ

Yeah, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with that sentence IMO. Hence the bum wrap I think that line gets.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-08-2004, 10:35 AM
Zetack Zetack is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 656
Default Re: Just a bad beat right?

[ QUOTE ]
I look at it this way, and I'm sure this a BAD way to look at it but I'm good at rationalizing things to myself that may be harmful. Unless someone in the hand has the ace of your suit AND has another card of that suit in their hand, then Kxs IS Axs. As long as we're agreeing that almost all the value of the hand comes from flushdraws or 2-pair or better.

The more I think about it the less that makes sense since there could be a 4-flush on the board. However I still think Kxs has a lot of value in LL hold 'em. And it is true that unless another player has Axs in your suit, which is very rare, then your hand is ALMOST like having Axs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but given that almost all of its value comes from its flush potential, you really need the players in to make shooting at the flush worthwhile.

Also, with these long shot hands, the more good longshot things you can add to the main one, the better. A-x makes two straights instead of one and one of em is the nuts and if your kicker is 2-5 then an A-5 straight is very likely to be the best straight too. (If you think this isn't worth something, well I lost twice last night with KK when the final board had 2-5 on it, and one of my opponents in each hand had a random ace.) And pairing your ace is just flat out better than pairing your king, and two pair will probably be top 2 pair.

Oh, and you already covered this, but K-x suited is vulnerable to a four flush on the board.

And this may be seldom applicable point in micro, but Ace high is a way better finishing hand than king high.

--Zetack
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-08-2004, 10:37 AM
Zetack Zetack is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 656
Default Re: Everyone who wants to \"charge the flush draws\" PLEASE READ

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with that sentence IMO. Hence the bum wrap I think that line gets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps Ed's saying the book is just generally lousy, not specifically in respect to flush draws.

--Zetack
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-08-2004, 10:38 AM
blackaces13 blackaces13 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 728
Default Re: Just a bad beat right?

Excellent points Zetack, I'm reconsidering how much I value Kxs as we speak. Good post.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.