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  #31  
Old 12-28-2005, 01:07 PM
Exitonly Exitonly is offline
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Default Re: A Rebuy ? for Math Majors

But in the situation we're tlaking about, the buyins are the same. Your EV on the first $20 you put in, is going to be greater than your EV than the second $20 you put in. Because you're going to be entering yourself into a slightly harder situation, the later in the rebuy, ,the more difficult the situation.

Lets say in the 45k your initial double rebuy ($20) is worth $40. If you bust and buy back in, your new double rebuy, isgoing to be worth slightly less than $40. Lets say $39. Now if you only invest the $20 when you're getting the most value for it, or the initial time, then you'll have won more money.

By the same logic, it could make sense to not even take the double rebuy. The first 1500 chips you get are 'worth more' than the second 1500, so if over the long haul you only invested the original $10, i dont see why it wouldn't be more profitable than if you had spent the same amount of $ w/ the double rebuy.

Though, for variance/hourly rate/enjoyment factors, i think double rebuying and such is best. But now i'm not so convinced that it's the most profitable way.

That said, i could just be thinking really funky at the moment.
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  #32  
Old 12-28-2005, 01:11 PM
Exitonly Exitonly is offline
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Default Re: A Rebuy ? for Math Majors

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: I think ROI is a pretty useless statistic when calculating profitability, it's all about EV and SD.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROI IS EV. you just have to make sure the units are the same. ROI uses buuyins as the unit (100% = +1 buyin) and EV is typically $ as the unit. Obviously they're not the same when they have different units, so saying that a $10k buyin has a bigger EV beccause you win more money, Meh, it's borderlin true.
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  #33  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:08 PM
Exitonly Exitonly is offline
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Default Re: A Rebuy ? for Math Majors

[ QUOTE ]
By the same logic, it could make sense to not even take the double rebuy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought about this some more, and i feel pretty confident about saying that now. double rebuying/adding on/buying back in when you bust and all is +EV, no doubt. But compared to what? It's +EV compared to not doing anything (this is considering you're a winning player). But's NOT +EV than just waiting and investing your $10 in the next tournament. So if time were of no concern, it would be better to just take the single addon, and that's all.

Method A:
You take the double rebuy, you buy back in when you bust, and you addon.
You make a series of $10 'purchases'.
The initla buyyin you buiy $20 of value for $10.
The doiuble rebuy you buy lets say $18 of value for $10.
The addon you buy $19 of value for $10.

Overall you've spent $30 to get $57.


Method B:
You single buyin to a tournament, if you bust you come back tomorrow. Repeat.

You buy $20 of value for $10.
You buy $20 of value for $10.
You buyy $20 of value for $10.

so now you get $60 for $30.



This all might be realyl common sense, but it's a new way of thinking for me, because i never really questioned the profitability of double rebuying. Because i just knew it was a +EV investment. but not necesarrily the most +EV.


edit:

If what i said is close to true. then even single rebuying, and single rebuying if you bust, is more +EV than double rebuying and double rebuying if you bust.
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:52 PM
Hotrod0823 Hotrod0823 is offline
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Default Re: A Rebuy ? for Math Majors

How does anyone account for the times that players with second hour starting stacks are only 5k and go on to win?

I think Cheif911 has won the 10+1 R a couple times with a 5K stack. I personally have gone deep starting hour 2 with 5K stack after multiple rebuys.

Another question: What is the value of your multiple rebuys if the chips you purchased stay on the table? I rebuyed multiple times at a loose table where our table average was 15K+ and I was very happy with my 5K stack because there were soo... many chips available starting the second hour.

The chips you bought through your multiple rebuys are still available too you after the rebuy period although they aren't in your stack yet.

How many times have we cursed the Pstars random table moves when you are sitting with 5k at a loaded table only to me moved to a table with smaller stacks? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I think aggressive Multi rebuy maniacs can gain some EV with every rebuy even if they don't have the chips at the end of the hour.

Some of the classic multi rebuy players are very good players that do an excelent job of getting those chips back. Some of that may be the "maniac" image that carried over into the second hour. Most of it is probably superior play when the non-rebuy portion of the tourny starts.
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:57 PM
jcm4ccc jcm4ccc is offline
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Default Re: A Rebuy ? for Math Majors

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think logically you maximize your ROI

[/ QUOTE ]
That's where I stopped reading this thread.

[/ QUOTE ] That's too bad. Because eventually you would have come to this sentence:

[ QUOTE ]
if you are trying to maximize your amount of winnings per day (as opposed to maximizing your ROI), then of course you will want to rebuy when you go broke.

[/ QUOTE ]

My main point was to refute the notion that you should only enter rebuy tournaments if you are planning on rebuying if you go broke. Which I think is just silly and illogical.
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:34 PM
M.B.E. M.B.E. is offline
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Default Re: A Rebuy ? for Math Majors

[ QUOTE ]
If what i said is close to true. then even single rebuying, and single rebuying if you bust, is more +EV than double rebuying and double rebuying if you bust.

[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't make sense. I think you are inadvertently assuming that the player's total bankroll is $30, which obviously is preposterous.

If you buy in to a rebuy tournament, then you're already playing it. If you can then take an initial rebuy, which in your example gains $18 of value for $10, it makes no sense at all to say "I'm going to forego that, essentially throwing $8 out the window, because tomorrow I can enter another tournament and get $20 of value for the same $10".

You are confused because you are still thinking in terms of ROI, which is not the same as EV.
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  #37  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:40 PM
Exitonly Exitonly is offline
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Default Re: A Rebuy ? for Math Majors

Well i said that you have to ignore time. EV is unrelated to time spent. So you're not 'throwing away' $8, you're just going to put the $10 to a better use. Think of it as you're playing two seperate tournaments, instead of one and double rebuying.

and, like i said to the other guy.. roi and EV are the same. They both measure your value.


[ QUOTE ]
That doesn't make sense. I think you are inadvertently assuming that the player's total bankroll is $30, which obviously is preposterous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Size of bankroll has nothign to do with the EV of a situation.
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  #38  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:53 PM
nath nath is offline
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Default Re: A Rebuy ? for Math Majors

I don't know any of the math behind any of this. What I do know is that I play the first hour aggressively (sometimes maniacally) and rebuy every time I bust, because I need a giant stack to survive the second hour and go deep. I don't play outside of my bankroll and I don't play if I can't afford to rebuy.
It seems logical to me that playing a rebuy when you can't rebuy puts you at an automatic disadvantage to everyone else in the tournament.
Since my results support this method I will continue to use it.
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  #39  
Old 12-28-2005, 06:20 PM
DWarrior DWarrior is offline
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Default Re: A Rebuy ? for Math Majors

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: I think ROI is a pretty useless statistic when calculating profitability, it's all about EV and SD.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROI IS EV. you just have to make sure the units are the same. ROI uses buuyins as the unit (100% = +1 buyin) and EV is typically $ as the unit. Obviously they're not the same when they have different units, so saying that a $10k buyin has a bigger EV beccause you win more money, Meh, it's borderlin true.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROI and EV are not the same, they're about as different as division and subtraction.

ROI = result/input, EV = result-input

A winning player in a $10,000 tournament will generally have a lower ROI than he would in a $1 tournament because of the vast skill difference of the opponents, but the EV of the $10,000 will be much higher than the EV of a $1.

Same in a cash game, your ROI will decrease, but your EV will increase. Doubling the stakes will not double your hourly rate, but it will increase it enough to be profitable.
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  #40  
Old 12-28-2005, 07:48 PM
M.B.E. M.B.E. is offline
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Default Re: A Rebuy ? for Math Majors

[ QUOTE ]
Well i said that you have to ignore time. EV is unrelated to time spent. So you're not 'throwing away' $8, you're just going to put the $10 to a better use.

[/ QUOTE ]
But why are you so concerned with "the" $10?

If we are talking about the last $10 in your bankroll, then what you say will make some sense: put it where the EV is highest. But if we are sufficiently bankrolled, then we can spend the $10 on a rebuy today (which is worth $8 of EV) and if we lose that, still spend $10 on tomorrow's tournament (which is worth $10 of EV I think, I forget the numbers in your example).

The point is, this is not an either/or situation. You can do both. If you pass up rebuying today, then you are throwing away $8 of EV (compared to rebuying today, and also entering tomorrow's tournament).

[ QUOTE ]
Think of it as you're playing two seperate tournaments, instead of one and double rebuying.

[/ QUOTE ]
But it isn't two separate tournaments.

[ QUOTE ]
and, like i said to the other guy.. roi and EV are the same. They both measure your value.

[/ QUOTE ]
DWarrior gives a good explanation of why you are wrong on this point.
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