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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:19 PM
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Default Weak Overcard Play

I'm still having a hard time with overcards.....as a beginner I frequently feel
trapped/lost...

BB plays any two hands VPIP has to be like 80 percent....CO is more or less
typical VPIP of 35 or so....neither seem to be particularly aggressive post flop

Pacific Poker .25/.5....Hero is UTG with [A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

Preflop:

Hero raises, folds to CO who calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Pot = 6.5 sb
FLOP[7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]](3 players)

BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero calls

Pot= 4.75 bb
Turn{T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]](3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero calls

Pot=7.75 bb
River[T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]](3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB folds, Hero folds

This is embarassing right? I should have led out and bet the flop?
I figure that if the overcard outs are good, I've got 6 outs and all I need is
6.7 : 1 to call...the pot gave me 7.5:1 and so the call was good. By the
same arguments, I only had 5.75:1 on the turn and I should have folded.
When the 3 flush appeared on the board and I had nothing, the river fold
was correct, right?

Thanks for any comments.

Jim
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: Weak Overcard Play

Pre flop: Good.

Flop: Lead out, you need to continue the aggression from pre-flop to the flop, plus it's likely you still have the best hand. If you check and it comes back to you raise it up, again to show strength.

Turn: You should probably lead out again. Although the board is coordinated enough that if you c/folded that probably wouldn't be as bad check calling.

River: Check/fold is fine.

You need to continue your pre-flop aggression with overcards into the hand. Make the limpers make bad decisions by putting pressure on them. Eventually you will learn what situations and what players will take bottom pair to the river and learn when to slow down, but it is very rarely the flop.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:49 PM
bozlax bozlax is offline
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Posts: 365
Default Re: Weak Overcard Play

[ QUOTE ]
You need to continue your pre-flop aggression with overcards into the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible advice, as a general rule. When your overcards don't connect with the board, and you don't feel that continuted aggression is going to fold anybody out by the turn (which is frequently true at micro-limits) checking is fine.

In this case, I think the check was good (absent a read like I described) on the flop, as was the call...you've got plenty to peel, here, and you're closing the action. Check/fold the turn UI.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Weak Overcard Play

My experience at Party .5/1 is that you will in fact fold out people who don't connect with the flop a lot of the time. Enough times that with only two other people in the pot this is almost always an autobet. When you get 5 or 6 callers and the flop misses you I am more likely to check but not with only 2 callers.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: Weak Overcard Play

AQo is very tough UTG, maybe just call and hope for a short handed flop, raising can get you into trouble, if there are 2 callers even, your equity drops, and you'r out of position.

Flop: This flop isn't too bad for AQo, your overcard outs are probably still good. I would bet and raise semibluff, protect those overcard outs aggressively.

Turn: Bet out again, keep in mind you're drawing dead to a set, but you may get a hand like 55 to fold here.

River: when the flush card hits it's time to represent it, you may get someone who has a 9 or 7 to fold. Do not show the hand down, either re-raise or fold if it is raised back to you. If it is capped fold. If you get called you're toast, but that's the danger in AQo UTG.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:12 PM
milesdyson milesdyson is offline
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Posts: 197
Default Re: Weak Overcard Play

[ QUOTE ]
AQo is very tough UTG, maybe just call and hope for a short handed flop, raising can get you into trouble, if there are 2 callers even, your equity drops

[/ QUOTE ]
uh, your equity drops with any hand with any additional callers. this is such a standard raise it's not even funny.

[ QUOTE ]
This flop isn't too bad for AQo, your overcard outs are probably still good. I would bet and raise semibluff

[/ QUOTE ]
what the hell?

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: Bet out again, keep in mind you're drawing dead to a set, but you may get a hand like 55 to fold here.


[/ QUOTE ]
yeah this just about never happens.

[ QUOTE ]
River: when the flush card hits it's time to represent it

[/ QUOTE ]
rofl

0/4
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:13 PM
nomadtla nomadtla is offline
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Default Re: Weak Overcard Play

Lead the flop. I don't want people to know I have overcards so I play the flop the same as I would an overpair. Checking the flop says, "Hey guys I have overcards and whiffed with them".

After that check/fold the turn. You have a very weak draw and the pot is no where near big enough to fight for.

If I am HU by the turn and have a very specific read that the villan I am HU with calls flops with nothing and folds turns, I probably bet the turn as the last money I put in UI
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Weak Overcard Play

[ QUOTE ]
AQo is very tough UTG, maybe just call and hope for a short handed flop, raising can get you into trouble, if there are 2 callers even, your equity drops, and you'r out of position.

Flop: This flop isn't too bad for AQo, your overcard outs are probably still good. I would bet and raise semibluff, protect those overcard outs aggressively.

Turn: Bet out again, keep in mind you're drawing dead to a set, but you may get a hand like 55 to fold here.

River: when the flush card hits it's time to represent it, you may get someone who has a 9 or 7 to fold. Do not show the hand down, either re-raise or fold if it is raised back to you. If it is capped fold. If you get called you're toast, but that's the danger in AQo UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

way too aggressive, always raise AQo UTG preflop
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:46 PM
bozlax bozlax is offline
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Posts: 365
Default Re: Weak Overcard Play

[ QUOTE ]
My experience at Party .5/1 is that you will in fact fold out people who don't connect with the flop a lot of the time. Enough times that with only two other people in the pot this is almost always an autobet. When you get 5 or 6 callers and the flop misses you I am more likely to check but not with only 2 callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe Bizzaro PartyPoker. I almost never see anybody fold to a single bet from a PFR on the flop. That said, it really is read-dependent, and it's close. I was mostly criticizing the "this should be an auto-bet" sentiment...you shouldn't ALWAYS bet ANYTHING.

And, to the poster that said you should bet because you don't want them thinking you have overcards, a) that presumes that they're thinking about what you have, and b) that they aren't going to assume that you have overcards, regardless, because that way they can continue with the hand. I don't think either of these things are going to be true > 60% of the time.
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:56 PM
Buckmulligan Buckmulligan is offline
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Posts: 5
Default Re: Weak Overcard Play

The flop is a must bet and the turn is still a pretty good place to bet. We could very well have the best hand and have some outs to improve if we don't.

Edit: When I say the turn isn't a bad place to bet, I meant that in the case that you had bet the flop and only been called.
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