Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid

[mdlm]

Once the action is back to you, what information do you have other than your immediate pot odds?

The information that someone raised and that others called.

[Jim Brier]

Mason, when I was playing in the Shreveport $20-$40 game, I frequently saw players limp in and then call both a raise and a reraise (two full bets) when the action came back to them. Can you think of any situation where this would be correct? (I would think folding would almost always be right since the limper supposedly did not have a good enough hand to raise with himself.)

[mdlm]

The point is that if you bet and someone raises, your odds are _always_ better. This means that you would _never_ fold to a raise after betting if his analysis is correct. Obviously it's not.

[Ed Miller]

I could see doing this with a small or medium pair if the odds were appropriate. For instance, you limp in UTG with 88... player to your left raises... player on his left reraises... several cold-callers back to you. You are probably correct to call the two bets back to you if your pot odds are 6-1 or so. Though I agree with you that folding is probably usually the correct play under most circumstances.

[Ed Miller]

mdlm... I think you are nitpicking here. The point is that a raise both gives you information about your opponent's hand and challenges you to call one more bet (at better pot odds, as you have noted). Preflop, the information you gain about other hands almost never causes the call of one more bet to become incorrect. Postflop, a raise can tell you that you are hopelessly behind and therefore should fold. There is almost no situation preflop where a raise can tell you that you are hopelessly behind.

[Dynasty]

When you limp with a pocket pair, even as low as 22, I think you can correctly call a double raise back to you. Other limping hands like KQo and JTs should almost always be folded.

[bob2007]

I will try to tackle this problem.

U limp because most of the time, your not strong enough to raise. If you're not strong enough to raise, why should you call? You only limped hoping you have a decent hand.

I.e. limping in mid position with q/jo. 7 players call, and button raises. Now, what do you think the button could have to make a raise like that? What kind of hand could he have raised that you have a decent chance of beating if you flop a pair? If the player is legit, he wouldn't be raising with anything less than k/qs most likely. k/q s is a hand that would destroy your q/j. Therefore his hand would likely be 10/10+ (very arguable, i'm not sure anyone would even raise on the button with that, and even j/j would be a favourite over your q/j slightly). Not only the raisor's hand, do you fear, but also the people calling. I support the the advice of those who said calling the raise with pocket pairs, but not hands that are not strong enough to raise with. You limp because you don't know any extra information preflop, since your hand is playable, you call. But when your hand is quite clearly an underdog, I say folding is correct.

IMO the question is not having the odds or not, its knowing that you could very likely be beat even if you hit the typical pair on the flop.

I think a raise on the button has a lot of strength especially when there are more callers.

2. How do I avoid this problem? You can't avoid it, because people can always be raising behind you. Have a good read about the type of player the guy is, play with position. If raised from behind, fold hands you would never raise with, other than pairs, typical limping hands don't win more than 15% anyways, but the raisor's hand could very likely be in that range.

[bernie]

i think if you need a better than raising hand to call a raise, you need a possible borderline raising hand to at least limp. it's linear to me.

in your example, first off, i wouldnt really be playing QJo in this spot. i play it in CO+1 typically. its a little early..whatre you hoping for? a big multiway pot? QJo isnt that great multiway. if im playing it in this spot, id rather raise and try and cut the field. if this is a passive table and a raise wont cut the field, id fold it. there are many players behind you left to act that could raise it. say there are 4 behind, that's 4 chances youre giving them to let you put dead money in the pot...how often are you going to try and limp and then fold to the raise? youre giving too much here. itd be better not to play it at all.

i take note on the table when players limp fold when they limp voluntarily into the pot, then leave dead money to a raise behind them. it means their playing standards are a little lower given the position theyre in. it also helps me define their hand a little more when they do call the raise. in fact i may be more inclined to raise behind them at this point. why> because my hand is borderline raise, there's may not even be worth the call they made.

a raise on the button with alot of callers could be a wide range of hands, it doesnt mean strength...you may even have the raiser dominated. say he holds JTs...which is an easy button raise with many callers. even if you knew someone had you beat preflop.

the only exception i may consider is folding to the sb raise, since many wont raise out of there without the big 3. but im exploring that. and until i conclude that finding, im still calling that raise behind me too...

ciao

b

[bernie]

the odds of making your hand change dramatically once the flop is out. your odds dont improve to making your hand necesarily based solely on pot odds. do you know what 'fit or fold' is and what it means? if the flop misses you completely you dont have the same odds to call as if you catch a piece of the flop regardless of pot odds. what are you drawing to? you missed

bob had a great explanation i thought...

b

[bernie]

it should also be noted, though obvious to most, that your blind money isnt 'voluntarily' put in the pot preflop. youre not 'limping' prior to the UTG's action.

b