Need help with some SSH concepts an example....

Toe-Knee · #1 12-13-2005, 07:13 AM

Ok so I played micro no limit for a while won a bunch and lost it all, so I decided limit would be more for me. Found you guys, bought SSH tried using it and lost my ass. So I quit playing for a year. Then one day I got bored and found a site that offered a free $25 for empire and said what the hell and tried it. So now I'm forced to play limit, and I'm not doing bad at all up a good amount (maybe just some luck though). Decided I needed to re-read ssh so I just did and really get a lot more of the concepts, but there is still so much I don't totally understand, so I'm gonna be here for a bit asking for some help if y'all don't mind. Anyway I'll start with this concept, "protecting your hand when the pot is big". First off I have a real hard time giving up control of the hand to try to get a raise in on turn, am I alone here??? So anyway here's a hand that shows that concept I think.

This was an insane game with about 3 maniacs (it was 5 handed and capped preflop a few times) It kinda seemed like everyone was slowing down but maybe that was just a coincidence.

Party Poker 0.15/0.30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.15. MP2 posts a blind of $0.22.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13.93 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 folds, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Ok truble here, my scatter-brained thoughts- this raise isn't gonna make anyone fold...I think, and a turn raise isn't gonna do anything if they even bet into me... or will it...*start trying to figure out their pot odds*....beep beep, ah screw it 'Raise'. Prolly not a good thought process but I was trying to take in all of these concepts at once. So anyway is this one of those where I should wait for the turn or is it one that I'm not going to be able to force anyone out of so I should push my edge. This is a very strong hand according to SSH, right? Or do the two big cards and two diamonds reduce its value? Also I checked what the pot would have been if say I just called the flop, and villain or utg+1 bets and I raise the turn everyone is still gonna have about 6-1. So I guess that means I can't really protect my hand, huh? So another point how do I figure that out quickly enough to know what to do? Can you tell my head is spinning over some of this stuff???

#2 12-13-2005, 07:25 AM

If you don't think the raise will make anyone fold then get as much money as you possibly can in the middle while you have the best of it with a very strong hand.

Edit: and no, you can't protect your hand with the money that is already in. You're ahead but won't be able to shake off a maniac if they're drawing to a straight or flush, whatever money you put in the pot. They're maniacs for a reason. I should add, I understand the concept of waiting for the turn to raise but you're also not on TPTK here, you've got a total monster which is going to be good the vast majority of the time. If you really think they're staying along for the ride, make them pay.

crovax4444 · #3 12-13-2005, 07:29 AM

Well, lets analyze your thoughts.

The raise isn't going to make anyone fold - who cares. You have a friggen set. A flush draw isn't going to fold, but you can't give them infinite outs. Your best choice was simply to bet. You do realize you have the nuts at this point. The best hand. This is a bet for value.

Turn raise - if they bet into you, raise it up again, they could be bluffing, they could have made 2 pair, they could have slowplayed Jacks, who knows.

Waiting for the turn in this case is foolish. Read the section on slowplaying. This is what your trying to do, and this is the worst possible time for you to do it.

Look, you can't go back in time and say, if I didn't raise QQ preflop then the pot wouldn't be so big and I can push people off. That's simply wrong. Your never going to be able to push a flush draw off. There was a thread on that last week about not raising AA. If you have QQ preflop, Cap that thing as often as possible. You hit a set on the flop, CAP it. Turn comes and it's a diamond, raise and slowdown if re-raised, you have pot odds to see 1 more to try to hit your boat.

You seem to lack the understanding of equity and pot odds. Pot odds are for calling. You ain't calling in this situation. Equity = % of pot that belongs to you. At this point (flop), it's 100% because you have the nuts (and that it's very likely to hold up). So put your $ in while you've got the best of it.

Crovax

nomadtla · #4 12-13-2005, 07:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
so I'm gonna be here for a bit asking for some help if y'all don't mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why we're all here so no we don't mind.

A lot of the SSH concepts take some time and a lot of experience to get so don't feel bad poker is not an easy game to master. And the concept you are talking about in particular is offten missaplied.

In the example you gave it's no thought to me you have to raise. Flush and straight draws are gonna come along anyways and the pot is to big for waiting for the turn to help you. Get as much in now while everyone else is still drawing against your nut hand.

The way I understand it (and hopefully someone better then me will come along and clarify or come along and correct me) there are 2 main situations where waiting for the turn helps.

When theres a big pot and you probably have the best hand but half the deck can kill you on the turn. Like the example on page 187 where you probably have the best hand but there are a lot of outs that beat you. It is better to wait for a safe turn card, then your opponents may still have outs but they only have one card to catch those outs with so your equity has increased.

The other time, which is more confusing and I think what you were wondering here. Is when you have a stronger hand and the pot is big. You must first understand that flush draws and stright draws will allways call. Your waiting for the turn might have caused an inside straight to fold on the turn. The thing is you have so much equity with top set that you are lossing value by not raising this flop. You want to do this in situations where you have less equity on the flop so giving it up isn't as costly. Even if the flush card comes on the turn you have a ton of outs to boat up. Sometimes (esspescially with sets) you just have to grit your teeth and ride it out. It sucks when you get beat but at this point you want to raise to make that pot big for the times (and they will be offten with top set) that you come out of the fray with the best hand.

I feel my explination is confusing but like I said this is a tough concept to grasp.

As far as your question about being able to do the math in a split second to make this decission. I don't think it's as much math as experience. Eventually it will just click. Don't try and overaply concepts, play your game. Post here and more importantly respond to posts here. Listen to the good posters (and there are many *I am not one of them) and eventually you'll get it.

I hope this helps. It was as much for me trying to learn by explaining it as it was to try and help you. Welcome to the forums and I hope one day you'll respond to a post like this one from a new guy and be able to say "I didn't get this at first either but here's how it works"

AlmightyJay · #5 12-13-2005, 08:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok so I played micro no limit for a while won a bunch and lost it all, so I decided limit would be more for me. Found you guys, bought SSH tried using it and lost my ass. So I quit playing for a year. Then one day I got bored and found a site that offered a free $25 for empire and said what the hell and tried it. So now I'm forced to play limit, and I'm not doing bad at all up a good amount (maybe just some luck though). Decided I needed to re-read ssh so I just did and really get a lot more of the concepts, but there is still so much I don't totally understand, so I'm gonna be here for a bit asking for some help if y'all don't mind. Anyway I'll start with this concept, "protecting your hand when the pot is big". First off I have a real hard time giving up control of the hand to try to get a raise in on turn, am I alone here??? So anyway here's a hand that shows that concept I think.

This was an insane game with about 3 maniacs (it was 5 handed and capped preflop a few times) It kinda seemed like everyone was slowing down but maybe that was just a coincidence.

Party Poker 0.15/0.30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.15. MP2 posts a blind of $0.22.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13.93 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 folds, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Ok truble here, my scatter-brained thoughts- this raise isn't gonna make anyone fold...I think, and a turn raise isn't gonna do anything if they even bet into me... or will it...*start trying to figure out their pot odds*....beep beep, ah screw it 'Raise'. Prolly not a good thought process but I was trying to take in all of these concepts at once. So anyway is this one of those where I should wait for the turn or is it one that I'm not going to be able to force anyone out of so I should push my edge. This is a very strong hand according to SSH, right? Or do the two big cards and two diamonds reduce its value? Also I checked what the pot would have been if say I just called the flop, and villain or utg+1 bets and I raise the turn everyone is still gonna have about 6-1. So I guess that means I can't really protect my hand, huh? So another point how do I figure that out quickly enough to know what to do? Can you tell my head is spinning over some of this stuff???

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a protection raise. This is a raise for value, because you have the nuts. Your hand is not very vulnerable - even if someone hits a flush on the turn, you have a redraw to a full house/quads. This is NOT a time to wait for the turn to raise. Good raise.

AlmightyJay · #6 12-13-2005, 08:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
At this point (flop), it's 100% because you have the nuts (and that it's very likely to hold up). So put your $ in while you've got the best of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean when you say this, but I just want to point out that even though you have the nuts right now, your equity on the flop is not 100%. You can't estimate your equity in a vacuum like that - equity is not just how far ahead you are now, but also how likely you are to win the entire hand. Here, it's probably around 75-80% (just a quick estimate, could be wrong).

Toe-Knee · #7 12-13-2005, 08:59 AM

Thank you so much guys your making a lot of sense and definatly helping me out more replies would be great if theirs any more to say. Some things I should clarify though, Corvax when I was talking about pot odds I was talking about the drawing hand's odds, specifically the flush draw. What I thought was that if by raising i could somehow get their odds to below 4-1, which I now see is rediculous, their call would be a mistake, which I thought was the point, so thanks for clearing up that no flush draws will fold here. I knew I had the nuts but I thought deez nuts were kinda vunerable, I mean a king ace or ten makes a straight possible and any diamond makes a flush, i guess I'm just a pessimest and think I'm gonna get drawn out on. Oh and nomadtla thanks for that bit on overaplying concepts because I was definatly doing that the secong I put down SSH, I look back and I know I would have raised and reraised here before rereading SSH, but I was caught up in that concept of thinning the field in this massive pot. Any way the results,

Turn
check to me I bet two calls,

river
random diamond, check, utg+1 bets I raise(if you can tell me why I do things like this when I'm 80% sure I'm beat I'd love you) utg folds, he three bets I call, shows nut flush and my poker confidence is flushed along with it.

And thank you guys soo much once again

jaxUp · #8 12-13-2005, 10:43 AM

didn't read the replies because they are really friggin long, but you are not trying to protect your hand here. You are raising for value because you have ridiculously high equity in this spot. Also, raising that river was retarded. You put in three bets when behind, win 2 when you're ahead. If you just call there you encourage the player closing the action to call as well. then you only risk one bet to win 2, rather than risking 3 bets to win 2.

#9 12-13-2005, 12:28 PM

Turn
check to me I bet two calls,

river
random diamond, check, utg+1 bets I raise(if you can tell me why I do things like this when I'm 80% sure I'm beat I'd love you) utg folds, he three bets I call, shows nut flush and my poker confidence is flushed along with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where reads help or not even so much because it is pretty obvious UTG+1 hit his flush draw. He's been lame the entire hand and they leads out on the river (donks) when the third diamond falls. I would have just called UTG+1's river bet.

This play would have been easier with reads though. If you know UTG+1 is the passive sort then you'd be more likely to believe he is betting the flush on the river.