HU battle history - I think this should be really interesting...

TheWorstPlayer · #1 08-29-2005, 11:32 PM

OK, villain in these hands is a good friend from my brutal home game. He is a good player, but Holdem is not his best game, he's better at O8. He is generally quite tight, although he will make some moves. Rarely makes loose calls, though. My question is about hand 4, but if anyone wants to comment on a previous hand feel free (except for Hand 1, obviously).

Hand 1
This is a hand from a few months ago from our home game. Villain has position on some other dude. It is heads up and the flop comes 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Other dude bets the pot and villain calls. Turn is 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Other dude bets 2/3 pot, villain raises big. Other dude thinks and pushes in for about half pot raise. Villain calls and flips A7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hits his gutshot on the river and is called "Suckout King" for rest of night.

Hand 2:
Same villain as in first hand, but I am the Hero in this hand. This hand was played a few days ago.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Button ($250.71)
TWP ($178.60)
BB ($244.24)
UTG ($109.85)
MP ($28.35)
CO ($91.85)

Preflop: TWP is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. TWP posts a blind of $0.50.
4 folds, TWP (poster) raises to $3.5, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
TWP bets $8, BB calls $8.

Turn: ($24) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
TWP bets $22, BB raises to $50, TWP calls $144.60 (All-In), BB calls $116.60.

River: ($357.20) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $357.20

Results in white below: 
TWP has Th Td (one pair, tens).
BB has 8h 8d (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: BB wins $357.20. 

After the hand was over, I realised that if he had a draw, as I believed was likely, he would have raised bigger. That small turn raise was obviously intended to keep me in and I should have folded.

Hand 3
This hand is from tonight. I am Hero, same villain.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

SB ($91.65)
BB ($187.20)
UTG ($72.09)
MP ($85.40)
TWP ($179.25)
Button ($118.30)

Preflop: TWP is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP raises to $4, TWP calls $4, 3 folds, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($13.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP bets $10, TWP calls $10, UTG folds.

Turn: ($33.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP bets $30, TWP calls $30.

River: ($93.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, TWP checks.

Final Pot: $93.50

Results in white below: 
MP has Td As (high card, ace).
TWP has 6c 9c (one pair, nines).
Outcome: TWP wins $93.50. 

Does anyone push the turn here? I was hoping he would make a desperation bluff on the river. But I now think it is better to push the turn to try to knock out a pair between 99 and KK (not too likely, I guess, with the short stack) or to protect myself against a likely 6 outer. If he folds, I win a big pot, great. If he calls, at least I protected myself as best I could. Yes?

Anyways, these previous hands all set the stage for Hand 4 which is my real question.

Hand 4
Same villain, I am Hero again. I'm guessing there are many different suggestions for preflop, flop, and turn. Let's hear them and the rationale please...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ TWP (6 max, 4 handed) converter

UTG ($71.95)
Button ($120.80)
SB ($97.50)
TWP ($313.39)

Preflop: TWP is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, SB (poster) raises to $3.5, TWP calls $3.

Flop: ($8) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $7, TWP calls $7.

Turn: ($22) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, TWP bets $21, SB calls $86.50 (All-In), TWP calls $65.50.

amoeba · #2 08-29-2005, 11:39 PM

good lord.

I pick a softer game.

you don't like checking behind on the turn and letting him bluff the river?

TheWorstPlayer · #3 08-29-2005, 11:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
good lord.

I pick a softer game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well these last three were all from Party NL100 6m. Can't get any softer than that! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But yeah, my home game sucks. Some of the guys there play uncapped buy-in NL and 80/160 at the casino. Blah.

[ QUOTE ]

you don't like checking behind on the turn and letting him bluff the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
I obviously didn't at the time, but I could be convinced. Can you please just explain a bit more of your rationale? I'll explain the thinking behind the way I played it after you guys get a chance to hammer it out. I think my thinking is interesting, but not necessarily correct.

amoeba · #4 08-29-2005, 11:57 PM

well I would bet the turn myself giving just the few hands you've given.

just based on the few hands you've posted, villain is capable of calling a raise preflop with non premium hands and showing aggression on th turn but I have not seen him raise preflop with a drawing hand.

So on the turn, I have to figure the ace hit him or he has some sort of made hand based on the few hands I've seen. I would bet the scare card to bluff him off his ace higher kicker.

but after he check raised all in, you called with your A9 so I gotta figure that you thought your A9 was good a nice percentage of the time. This leads me to believe that you have more info on him that allows you to believe his range of hands that got to the turn is much greater than the range I put him on based just on 4 hands.

if you believe he can have air here, then why not check behind on the turn and induce a bluff?

there is no real draw there on the flop and 45 just got there.

TrailofTears · #5 08-29-2005, 11:57 PM

Well, I'm going to comment on a few of the hands/things in this post. Nice post, btw. I would expect nothing less with effing 5K before this one. Nerd [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. However, one thing you neglect to show is how he bets with a real hand. You have shown CR's and raises, but no plain value bets or bets with monsters.

First, I think you are remembering the hand from a few months ago more than villain likely is. This post really feels like you want to justify a call here on the hand in question.

Second, I think I hate your push in hand two. I would really rather see a call of this min-raise, and re-evaluate UI on the river, especially given your read of him on a draw, which I honestly don't see. You went from putting ~$35 into the pot to putting ~$180 on what seems like a whim. Maybe I am being results oriented, but why are you pushing him off of a draw that he already priced himself out of? I'm not necessarily willing to give this hand up, but I think you might see a cheap showdown if you call turn, check river.

Hand 3, I don't push turn at all. I like how you played it, and I also check behind on the river. I do understand your point about a pretty clear 6-ouer that you won't be able to see when it hits. I guess if you have the read on him, I would say go for it, but it is clear from this thread that you don't necessarily have him read yet. Hence, I play this one more cautiously.

As for the hand in question, can I ask what you have him read for there? Personally, I don't like the turn bet. I would check behind here, as I am not interested in playing a big pot with a 3-flush on board and a weak ace in my hand.

Sorry if this post is long and awful. I am a bit rusty, as I haven't played or posted in well over a month. I'll work back into mediocre shape soon enough. Oh, and I have been trying to diversify my game into tourneys a bit lately, so this ring game stuff might take a bit of getting used to again.

-T [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

wtfsvi · #6 08-30-2005, 12:02 AM

Since you called his check-raise on the turn, you obviously expected that he was going to expect you to delayed bluff him. Therefore, you probably shouldn't have planned to delayed bluff him.

Once the ace comes off on the turn, you can't very well check behind and give any spade a free shot though. After the check raise he is quite probable to have the Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] imo (or K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q). Giving you the chance to check behind without a high spade in his hand would be risky. I guess you can call and hope he doesn't have another spade, another queen or an ace.

I think if his hand range is so wide you have to call the flop because you will be ahead with A high often, I might consider repopping preflop, and if not, I'm folding the flop.

TheWorstPlayer · #7 08-30-2005, 12:19 AM

Very nice post, thanks. And welcome back.

[ QUOTE ]
However, one thing you neglect to show is how he bets with a real hand. You have shown CR's and raises, but no plain value bets or bets with monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's usually pretty aggressive, but can mix it up. As I said, he's good. Probably slightly worse than I am at Holdem, but certainly not much worse. He's good.

[ QUOTE ]
First, I think you are remembering the hand from a few months ago more than villain likely is. This post really feels like you want to justify a call here on the hand in question.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm just trying to layout some of the history so that you guys can have a clue as to what I was thinking about in each of these hands. But yes, I was definitely thinking about Hand 1 a lot in Hand 2 and I don't think he was. As I said, I should have folded instead of pushed in Hand 2. He is more 'tight' than tricky usually and for him to make that small raise should have been pretty clear to me that he had a monster. Bah, I played badly and lost my stack. It happens. But I wanted to include Hand 2 because it was VERY much in both our minds during hands 3 and 4.

[ QUOTE ]
Second, I think I hate your push in hand two. I would really rather see a call of this min-raise, and re-evaluate UI on the river, especially given your read of him on a draw, which I honestly don't see. You went from putting ~$35 into the pot to putting ~$180 on what seems like a whim. Maybe I am being results oriented, but why are you pushing him off of a draw that he already priced himself out of? I'm not necessarily willing to give this hand up, but I think you might see a cheap showdown if you call turn, check river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if I thought he had a draw here more than 50% of the time, I should re-raise to charge him to draw or to make him fold, right? But I shouldn't have thought that, given the action, really, and I shouldn't have pushed. You are right and I paid $150 for my mistake. Damnit.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3, I don't push turn at all. I like how you played it, and I also check behind on the river. I do understand your point about a pretty clear 6-ouer that you won't be able to see when it hits. I guess if you have the read on him, I would say go for it, but it is clear from this thread that you don't necessarily have him read yet. Hence, I play this one more cautiously.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify, in case it's not clear: I was 100% calling a push on the river. I did not at all think I was behind more than 50% of the time here. I thought I was behind maybe 10% of the time. And when I was behind, I was behind to a set. No way he has a K here with that pot sized bet on flop and turn. Just trying way too hard to push me out.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the hand in question, can I ask what you have him read for there? Personally, I don't like the turn bet. I would check behind here, as I am not interested in playing a big pot with a 3-flush on board and a weak ace in my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll explain my thinking later.

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry if this post is long and awful. I am a bit rusty, as I haven't played or posted in well over a month. I'll work back into mediocre shape soon enough. Oh, and I have been trying to diversify my game into tourneys a bit lately, so this ring game stuff might take a bit of getting used to again.

-T [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, very nice post. Welcome back.

#8 08-30-2005, 02:07 AM

TWP:

I think I need to just send you the commission check. I have read this post through twice, and it looks to me like this is poker on a level at which I can only dream of playing. Bearing in mind my relative (to you) inexperience, here goes:

You asked if anybody pushes the turn in hand three, where you have the pair of nines. I sure as hell don't. I would auto-fold the flop bet most of the time. With this player, maybe not, but my alternative to folding that flop is raising that flop, and god only knows what happens after that. But, no, I don't push the turn. I understand your logic, but your logic is premised on him having nothing to the exclusion of having anything at all. If you are that certain of your read (I guess you were, since you kept betting) then, yeah, pushing makes sense. But no way in hell I can bring myself to do it unless I am dead bang certain I am ahead. Potting it protects you well enough, doesn't it? If he has 6 outs, he is being aggressively stupid (or just plain aggressive) to call that bet.

OK, hand 4:

I think your decision here to call his all-in is based primarily on the way he uses his raises. Based on the hands you have provided, he uses big raises when he wants to push you off a pot and smaller ones to suck you in. So his all-in looked like he wanted you out, right? Based on the information you have provided, I call, too.

(Now you can tell me how much I have to learn. Nice post, thanks).

xorbie · #9 08-30-2005, 02:15 AM

In hand 2, I'm probably check/calling the turn and leading the river. Not only does this cover for when I'm bluffing a missed draw, but it probably gets the most out of his mediocre made hands. I think HU in a blind defense scenario he is unlikely to take a free card on that turn with a hand like TJ, but if he does I'll probably check the river too and call a bet.

I don't like hand 3. I think you're trying to outplay him here, and I think you'll end up outplaying yourself more often than not, and I know this because it's what happens to me. I think villain is often bluffing the turn here with a better hand, and I think that he has such high equity against you that this line is pretty poor, IMO.

Hand 4: Well, he's obviously trying his best to represent the flush. The problem of course is that you're drawing dead if he does have it, and you're not necessarily way ahead if he doesn't, because I'll warrant you'll see QxK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] here or basically any hand with a spade and a 4 or 5 is also possible. I don't think he's the type to just bluff with no equity whatsoever, and given that you have no spades you're sitting on only about ~70% here against his bluffs.

Now IMO the main problem is that after Hand 3 (and I'm assuming other hands as well), he sees that you don't often give him credit for a hand, and so I think he could easily be betting a flush, better A or even 45 here and looking for a heroic call.

fimbulwinter · #10 08-30-2005, 09:59 AM

hand 2 turn push is terrible given board. folding to minraise is pro. calling and folding to the river push is what i'd do.

think about his line and that board and what hands you beat play like that.

hand 3

perfect

hand 4

i threebet here a lot PF but my HU game is pretty ramped up PF because my opponents in gneral overrespect a 3bet.

that siad i don't like a turn bet here at all cos you lose the bald bluffs and keep the hands that beat you and the solid semibluffs. i think you see QK with 1 or 2 spades here a lot.

fim