JJ Hand

[fuzzbox]

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I fail to see what you give up by limping JJ in EP. Please enlighten me.

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Im not trying to "enlighten" anyone, Im just giving my opinion. Chances are that you have the best of it preflop with JJ. Isnt that what poker is about, getting your money in when you have the best of it? Do you disagree with the contention that JJ plays poorly in a multiway pot? My guess in the long run how you play JJ UTG isnt going to affect you much either way. I am more comfortable raising UTG.

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Yes - unimproved JJ plays poorly in a multiway pot. However spiking a J in a multiway pot is a huge earner.

My point is that you lose a little fairly often by limping JJ UTG, but you stand to make a big gain infrequently.

Your strategy - attempts to win many small-medium pots by playing it for the best hand.

Both are quite reasonable - and Im not seeking to suggest otherwise. However you mention that you "give up to much by not raising". I fail to see what you give up.

My point is that raising with a "one-pair" style hand when OOP - can often result in nasty consequences, as the pot escalates and you have only a pair of Js, and you are first to speak.
If you compensate by winning lots of small pots, then thats perfectly ok. As I said - JJ is a fine hand, and raising to limit the field/setup a flop take-down is a worthy cause.

I prefer to limp - as I lose a little money more often, and keep in those hands that I want in (A-J and worse).

[vulturesrow]

I guess what you are "giving up" is a preflop edge in equity, which you obviously you are compensated for the times that you
that you flop a big hand. I am a pretty average player and thus I prefer not to give up any edges I might have. Anyhow thanks for youe explanation. Hopefully some others will provide some input as well.

[Vroomster]

Here's my read on what the opponent was holding (assuming he's not an idiot).

His preflop raise indicated a good hand, but not great. If he has AA-KK, he would have pushed your raise farther.

Given this: I'd say AK,AJ (some suit other than clubs, or unsuited).

[NYCNative]

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Yes - unimproved JJ plays poorly in a multiway pot. However spiking a J in a multiway pot is a huge earner.

[/ QUOTE ]Unimproved 44 plays poorly in a multiway pot, however you know you are playing 44 for set value because there will always be overs and if someone has a PP it's bound to be bigger than yours.

JJ is the fifth best starting hand in HE. By limping with it, you turn the fifth strongest starting hand in HE into 44. This does not compute.

[fuzzbox]

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Yes - unimproved JJ plays poorly in a multiway pot. However spiking a J in a multiway pot is a huge earner.

[/ QUOTE ]Unimproved 44 plays poorly in a multiway pot, however you know you are playing 44 for set value because there will always be overs and if someone has a PP it's bound to be bigger than yours.

JJ is the fifth best starting hand in HE. By limping with it, you turn the fifth strongest starting hand in HE into 44. This does not compute.

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How do you turn it into 44 by limping it ? That is nonsense.

Do you ever limp AA up front and just smooth call a raise ? I know I do (sometimes). Why do you do this ? Is it deceptive ? Does it cause opponents to make mistakes against you ?

Limping a hand does not turn it into 44, it simply doesnt reveal the strength of the hand until later (if it reveals it at all).

If you raise JJ, and somebody reraises ... then you are in a really horrible position, and you have lost the chance to flop a set (or you pay too high a price for it, or you call and throw off chips on a 9-high board).

Just because its the fifth best starting hand, doesnt force me to play a big pot out of position with it. In position I raise this hand frequently - but OOP, well Im a little less inclinced to create a difficult situation for myself.

[fuzzbox]

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Yes - unimproved JJ plays poorly in a multiway pot. However spiking a J in a multiway pot is a huge earner.

[/ QUOTE ]Unimproved 44 plays poorly in a multiway pot, however you know you are playing 44 for set value because there will always be overs and if someone has a PP it's bound to be bigger than yours.

JJ is the fifth best starting hand in HE. By limping with it, you turn the fifth strongest starting hand in HE into 44. This does not compute.

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One more thing ... think about this.

You raise JJ UTG, you are called by the button with AsKs. The flop comes down 9-4-2 rainbow. You bet and he folds.

Next hand you both have the same hands ... you limp in, and the button raises. The flop comes 9-4-2, you check, he bets and you raise, and he folds.

Which strategy won more money ?

[IamLeach]

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Raising ATs and QJs UTG at a full table does not sound right. I would much rather be folding them.

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If your goal is to fold those hands up front than I would say you are playing too few hands. What is your VPIP?

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Few small stakes players pay attention at all to weather you raise. Very few of those that do, pay attention to what positions you raise in. Just let the ones that do pay attention have the information. Raising AT UTG will cost you much more in the long run.

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Even Donks know when somthing costs more than usual. Of course they see the position your in but I will agree that they probbaly do not understand the meaning behind it. ie the difference between a raise from UTG and a raise from the CO. I wouldn't raise AT UTG myself either but I might raise ATs utg depending on the table. Probably 50% of the time.

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For the record, open raising with JJ is fine at a lot of tables, but the big pots in full ring are won when you spike the J, with the JJ overpair. That's why you limp.

EDIT: By the way, you're raising ranges for UTG don't sound half bad for LP.

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Raising UTG with JJ is perfectly fine imo. I am trying to thin the field out as much as possible if not just pick up the blinds. I dont want hands in there that would normaly fold to a raise but would limp in given the chance. I do understand that the hand is a little more dangerous than the other high pocket pairs but it is still a premium hand and it needs to be protected and the only way to protect your hand is to bet. What are your raising standards for UTG?

[IamLeach]

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if you limp it up front then you can happily check/fold on a K84 flop. Sure - you might get bluffed, but you wont lose a whole lot of money with it.


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Maybe it's just my style but i will never happily check/fold. I do it when needed but i don't like it. Your play here may be considered playing smart but I call it playing scared and that is somthing I never want to do.

[IamLeach]

People will often play a hand for a limp but not for so much as a single bet or more if your at NL. These people would normally fold but because you failed to priotect your hand they decieded to limp in. I will limp in with QT or a similar hand that isnt suited but if there is a raise I will fold probably 70% of the time. If you allow your opponants to limp in with you then your playing it for set value and imo JJ is worth more than that.

[IamLeach]

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Yes - unimproved JJ plays poorly in a multiway pot. However spiking a J in a multiway pot is a huge earn

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So is spiking a set with any pocket pair.