Whats the ruleing on this?

[Mojo Tooth]

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If you shuffle again, the outcome has been changed.

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So what? It's still an unknown outcome. This is exactly my point. ANY unknown outcome is just as legitimate as any other. I wouldn't mind if, instead of burning a card, the dealer shuffled the deck before dealing the flop, turn and river. Of course that's impractical for reasons of speed, but completely equivalent.

What if you found out that an online site didn't bother to actually shuffle the deck before dealing a card off of it? It would be exactly mathematically equivalent to simply choose a random number between 0 and 51, deal that card, then eliminate it from the deck. Then for your next card, pick another random number between 0 and 50, deal that card, so on and so forth.

By your line of thinking there would be no pre-determined outcome, so it would be somehow undesirable, yes? But you would never know the difference because it's EXACTLY THE SAME.

[SamIAm]

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The outcome is random only until the suffle and cut have been made, at which point the outcome has become fixed. If you shuffle again, the outcome has been changed.

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I gotta say, I agree with Mojo here. If the outcome is only random until the shuffle and cut, and it's changed afterwards, what do you call it? Mojo and I would call it "random".
-Sam

[varoadstter]

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The outcome is random only until the suffle and cut have been made, at which point the outcome has become fixed. If you shuffle again, the outcome has been changed.

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Since that outcome is as yet unknown, it's no different from another unknown outcome. It is even "possible" that the reshuffling will produce the exact same result as before.

You remind me of those guys at the blackjack tables that get pissed off when someone "plays wrong" and you get different cards after him. I think that's silly too, but it's actually more defensible than being upset about the stub getting "rerandomized".

[Lottery Larry]

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The outcome is random only until the suffle and cut have been made, at which point the outcome has become fixed. If you shuffle again, the outcome has been changed.

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Since that outcome is as yet unknown, it's no different from another unknown outcome. It is even "possible" that the reshuffling will produce the exact same result as before.

You remind me of those guys at the blackjack tables that get pissed off when someone "plays wrong" and you get different cards after him. I think that's silly too, but it's actually more defensible than being upset about the stub getting "rerandomized".

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This whole "you messed up the hand!" concept is a long-held belief/curse of the typical home game player. Probability isn't something that people consider, because they're only thinking in a results-oriented, short-term manner.

As for the BJ comment- it isn't any worse or better. The doofus playing badly is just as likely to help you as to hurt you, unless you know what the count is and it's a pretty large gap. While it is aggravating to have happen on a short-term session, it isn't ANY different in my mind from the poker fallacy. Random chance is random chance and it will all eventually even out properly "in the long run"

[Mojo Tooth]

It actually does have one effect that legitimately pisses off blackjack players.

If you split tens, you're obviously looking for high cards, nines or tens or aces, to go with each. In their eyes, you're looking to trash the count, which may be good at the moment.

I'm not defending that behavior because it's still BS, but there is a different (and perhaps arguably more legitimate) reason other than "affecting the outcome."

[Lottery Larry]

"In their eyes, you're looking to trash the count, which may be good at the moment."

I'm looking to make the most I can in a good situation- what they think about it means about this much to me.. unless we have pieces of each other, they can go blow smoke.

[Mojo Tooth]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm just saying, unlike the previously discussed poker situations, playing BJ "the wrong way" can potentially affect a card counter's profitability, depending on when you choose to do it.