Palestinians

[jcx]

Check out the following link to a website written by palestinians. They of course have little nice to say about Israel, but it also gives some insight on how their Arab "brothers" treat them.

web page

Some highlights:

Palestinians living in Lebanon, Egypt, and more recently in Iraq are subject to the same employment laws applicable to foreigners, with no consideration given to birth in the country or length of stay.

With few exceptions, Palestinians in the Arab host countries are treated as foreigners and do not have access by right to government services such as education, health and social benefits.

At present, RD holders or Palestinians carrying "temporary" Jordanian passports are frequently denied entry visas to almost all Arab states. A lengthy and agonizing procedure is necessary for RD holders to enter Syria, Lebanon, and to a lesser extent Jordan.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
Threads like this are what make me thankful to have Israel and even more thankful that it has taken the general policy direction it has.

In Israel, we don't have to worry about how other people perceive us, we don't have to behave meekly so some people get angry and elect a government that decides they want us dead again.

Here, we are free. Don't bother us, we won't bother you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Israel hadn't been cashing billion dollar checks from Uncle Sam you could say that. Israel is a shill for America and vice versa.

[Gamblor]

1/3 of this planet is cashing checks from Uncle Sam.

Nationality and business are not the same.

[johnc]

A major part of Ireal's stance in regards to Palestine issue (or any Arab conflict for that matter) is to understand why they have taken on the role of regional bully. The Zionist movement post WWII and the subsequent establishment of Isreal as a nation as a direct result of an entire population of Jews who were horribly tortured, starved, denined basic human dignities, stripped of their property, and killed during the Holocoust. These people and the Isreali government have been instilled with a strong sense of survival towards the interactions with any non-Jewish peoples/nations. Carried to the next level, the bullied has become the bully. Isreal feels strongly about their very existance in the area and will fight to the bitter end to maintain that which they have struggled so long and suffured so much to obtain.

Does this justify racial discrimination of the non-Jewish in the Isreali occupied areas - no. Does any of the suffering experienced during the Holocoust justify the outright treatment of Arab-Isrealis as second class citizens - no. It seems to me that Isreal should be the most simpathetic to the causes of any oppressed peoples in the world especially those closest in proximity to them, but they are not. The repeated actions of Isreal has produced absolutely no tangible forms of peace in the region, instead I equate their oft repeated acts of violence and injustices as basically throwing gasoline on the fire. There may always be some tensions between Isreal and their Arab neighbors due to basic idealogical and religious differences but IMO peace is possible but Isreal, being the aggressor has to make the effort beyond reliquishing of spots of occupied land.

[lehighguy]

We also pay off the Egyptions, and the Saudis, and a lot of others. We also objected to the invasion of Egypt in 1956 if I remember correctly.

Not that I think this is a particulurly good policy, we should cut aid to those countries. However, when most people criticize Israel is goes far beyond foriegn aid, they are making moral judgements.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
We also pay off the Egyptions, and the Saudis, and a lot of others. We also objected to the invasion of Egypt in 1956 if I remember correctly.

Not that I think this is a particulurly good policy, we should cut aid to those countries. However, when most people criticize Israel is goes far beyond foriegn aid, they are making moral judgements.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm against aid to all of the countries that you just mentioned. I only brought up the aid to Israel in response to someone who suggested that it is not our position to judge Israel. Even if we never gave money to Israel, I would still be against many of their policies, but the fact that we have given them so much money splashes some blood on our hands.

[lehighguy]

I agree that Isreal should withdraw, such would be a prudent policy. They can't hold onto the lands, and it isn't helping them strategically. Now that they have nuclear weapons they don't need those lands as a military buffer anymore.

However, just because I think it is prudent political policy doesn't mean I judge them morally as a third party. If the Arabs had won any of the wars (or if they could today) there wouldn't be any Jews in Israel because they would have slaughtered them all men, women, and children. While I personally wouldn't do the same is Isreal's shoes, I won't sit here and judge thier merely doing what others would have done to them.

[johnc]

[ QUOTE ]
Threads like this are what make me thankful to have Israel and even more thankful that it has taken the general policy direction it has.

In Israel, we don't have to worry about how other people perceive us, we don't have to behave meekly so some people get angry and elect a government that decides they want us dead again.

Here, we are free. Don't bother us, we won't bother you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's easy to be smug when the shoe's on the other foot. Isreal's defiance of peace in the face of constant violent reprisals towards non-Jews under their stewardship is being met with less and less support from the rest of the world. Given the fact that they (Isreal) depend so heavily upon aid from the US there will come a time when Isreal's attitude will have to change.

it's not hippocritical. the arab states surrounding israel are in a state of relative dissaray. Lebanon has the 2nd highest national debt/GNP in the world, Syria's a mess, Egypts on the brink of utter chaos, the list goes on. The U.S. and France struggle with immigrants, and they are at the top of the food chain. just because the palestinians and the surrounding arabs both have brown skin does not mean that the struggling arab states should bear the respncibility of a mass of poor refugees. Leighi guy, you're way off as well. Why are the palestinians responcible for the wars precipitated by other arab states? palestinians were forced off their land as early as 1949, not only after subsequent wars. Fishhooks makes a rare good point that the past is the pas, atrocity or not, there's no going back.. this does not justify the treatment of the palestinians however. they are subject to curfews, ridiculous checkpoints which makes it impossible to go from one west bank town to another in a reasonable amount of time. traversing barb wire fences to go to school etc. i wonder why they're so hopeless and resort to suicide bombing? not saying it's right, just saying the facts.

[lehighguy]

I'm not necessarily saying I would do the same in Israels shoes, but as a third party I don't think you have a right to judge the Isreali's given the history.

For instance, I don't think people in France have the right to judge our using of the atomic bomb on Japan. Maybe they can have an opinion about it, but to presume to judge is arrogance.