Ever fold KK preflop???

This isn't me complaining about a bad beat I just want opinions on this. I played a $150 live multitable today (15 tables). I frequently play at the casino that held the event, and a few players I've played with before were at my table. One player in particular I was friendly with was sitting to my left, and we both respect eachother's game, even chopping a few single table tourny prizes before. Anyway, start with 4000 units and maybe the third hand of the tourny today I picked up pocket kings in the small blind after a couple of limpers. Blinds $25/50 so I didn't want to get too cute with my kings and I raised to 500. My "friend" I mentioned before looks at his cards, goes for his chips as if he's gonna raise, and after some manuevering goes all in. I knew (well I was more than 90% sure) he had to have pocket aces. He's a solid player and that could be the only way he makes this move on me. The limpers fold, and the action's back to me, and I say "I know you have aces but I can't let this hand go, I have to call" and sure enough, he flips over aces. Needless to say, I lost the hand and got knocked out first. He later told me that going all in was the only way he could get me to fold, and he was trying to do me a favor. There was only one other time I can think of where I had a gut feeling my opponent had pocket aces before the flop when I had kings, and I was right that time too, but I called and hit quads on the flop. Wasn't so lucky this time, but it made me do some deep thinking, and wanted to know if anyone has ever folded pocket kings in a similar situation, or if folding kings preflop is unacceptable no matter what.

[nath]

Make a normal raise next time. Why would you raise 10xBB? You're almost ensuring yourself you win a small pot or lose a big one, as they say.

Also, paragraphs.

Bad position mostly. I was small blind so I'd be first to act after the flop. Also that early in the tournament any raise under $500 won't be respected.

[centja1]

i've never folded KK preflop before, but the only time I ever considered it was about the fifth hand of an online MTT.

I'm on the button and everyone has about T1500 in chips with blinds at 10/20. Action goes UTG raise to T60, 2 folds, MP2 raise to T250, 2 folds, I raise to T800, 2 folds, UTG raises to T1500, MP2 calls.

This is the only time that I could imagine laying down KK preflop and I still couldn't do it. UTG had AK and MP2 had AA.

I'm a glutton for punishment and, hence, vote no.

Don't you want more money in the pot??? If your gonna raise 500 u might as well make it all in.

[southgapoker]

I don't see the point in raising 10 BB.

You are likely going to win 75 chips. You might get very lucky and run into someone's QQ or JJ. That's unlikely. You might get unlucky and run into AA in which case your tournament will be over.

Raise to 175 or 200 and take down bigger pots with monster hands early in tournaments. There's no need to encourage A/10 or A/J to fold preflop at those blind levels.

Ok say I make the standard 3-5x big blind raise to $175 from the small blind perhaps, big blind goes all in. Now I've committed myself less chips in the pot, still early in the tournament, and I give my opponent better than 50/50 odds of having pocket aces. Do I fold now?

[southgapoker]

And to answer your question.

No I have not. I've figured I was beat before, but never been able to lay it down.

[southgapoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok say I make the standard 3-5x big blind raise to $175 from the small blind perhaps, big blind goes all in. Now I've committed myself less chips in the pot, still early in the tournament, and I give my opponent better than 50/50 odds of having pocket aces. Do I fold now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. If it's better than 50/50, sure. The pot is nothing in that case compared to a T3800 chip count.

[EverettKings]

You don't have to be anywhere near 90% sure to fold KK correctly with those terrible pot odds. Something like 60% I think is enough. I made a long post about this in MHNL a while ago but it's really a simple math exercise. When he doesn't have AA, you're probably a 4:1 or 3:1 favorite (vs lower pocket pair and AK respectively). So if 90% of the time youre a 4:1 dog and 10% of the time you're a 3.5:1 favorite, a fold is necessary even though 10% of the time you feel like a total goon when he shows QQ.

The misconception is that you can NEVER incorrectly fold KK preflop unless youre 100% SURE, as if it's the end-all of poker weaktightness, that you will be laughed at and made fun of for the rest of your poker life. But if you KNOW the math and KNOW that you're against aces a large percentage of the time here, you can make this fold and not worry about the few times you're wrong.

For the record, I've only made this fold once. The better the players get, the greater the chance of someone eventually smooth calling and playing a flop, so I don't really get the chance anymore. Oh how I miss the fishies at party $25 NL....


Everett