Poker and Religion

[goldcowboy]

I love this game. Man, do I love this game! And yet I am a Christian and try to live my life as a disciple of/for Christ. For those who, like me, have a Protestant background this presents a quandary, and I know others struggle with the issue as well. I don't know the position other non-Christian religions take on gambling, but I do know that at the local annual Knights of Columbus stag night there are just as many of us backsliding Methodists and Baptists in attendance as bona fide Catholics. But our attraction to poker is frowned on by our churches, and we are made to feel guilty about it. Is this justified, and if so, how do we deal with it?

The Bible mentions that the Roman soldiers gambled for Christ's clothing during his crucifixion, but this probably doesn't count because the soldiers weren't Christian. But the Bible also mentions Christ instructing his disciples to draw lots for some purpose, I think it was to decide who would be paired up with whom when he sent them out to spread his message. So they were using an element of chance to determine a course of action. Isn't this gambling?

But it seems poker playing, or gambling in general, is discouraged because of the potential for addictive/obsessive behavior and the serious financial consequences that can result, and the old Calvinist idea that anything that comes into your possession you must have earned honestly (I guess Calvin never played in a multi-table holdem tourney, because on the occasions when I cash I definitely feel like I earned it!). We all know the potential for obsessive/addictive behavior is definitely there, but poker isn't the only culprit. My wife sometimes overspends at the mall, but so far there is no mass movement to outlaw malls or take the Home Shopping Network off TV. Some folks imbibe too much, but there is no serious effort afoot to do away with bars. And I know people who spend time on the golf course or fishing when they should be at work, but I haven't heard of efforts to tear out the golf courses and shut down the bass boat factories. So singling out poker, or gambling, on this score alone is just not justified.

That isn't to say that we Christians can gamble to our heart's content, however. The essence of being Christian is contained in the Great Commandment, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your spirit, and your neighbor as yourself." In other words we are called be outward directed, and to be as concerned with the world around us and our fellow man as we are with ourselves. We should resist being self-centered and inward-directed. And therein lies the problem. Poker is addictive, and any of us who get hooked find ourselves drawn to the game at every available moment. And that's the part that is unhealthy, possibly unChristian, and maybe even immoral. Christ calls us to love our neighbor and tend to his needs, and that's hard to do when you spend every waking moment playing internet poker. But practically any human endeavor can be abused by obsessive behavior. The Bible says something about it being impossible to serve two masters, because you will come love one master and hate the other. And through their obsessive behavior humans can make a master (or god) out of many things, including material possessions, jobs, money, golf, alcohol, or yes, even poker. So the challenge is to play poker in moderation and not allow it to rule our lives. And yet I can see that to become really competitive at the game one must become a student and approach it with single-minded dedication. So must we as Christian poker players remain fishies, or is it possible to grow in the game while we are simultaneously growing in our faith?

[Kevin]

Thanks for this thread and your response to my off topic question in the other forum. I really enjoy the mental gymnastics of the game and I won't lie that the revenue stream is nice. My wife and I built a new house last year. It was the home of our dreams and we stretched to get to it. I make about $600 a week playing poker (about 25 hours a week). I give my wife $250 for mad money from the earn and it is the difference between her being comfortable and keeping the belt tight. In my opinion, this house is where I sinned. We got all of the bells and whistles in the house - 3500 square feet, granite countertops, the works. I now see poker as a second income source versus the weekend fun that it used to be - and it totally changes the mindset in how I approach the game. But/For the gluttonous home purchase, it would be a moot point. I am not addicted to the game. I have a very set schedule. I spend time with the boys after work, put them to bed at 9, play until midnight Monday-Thursday. 9-2 on Friday, and an additional 13 hours throughout the weekend. I don't miss small group, Sunday morning services, or any church function on behalf of Poker. I don't play late on Saturday - lest I fall asleep during the service - Yet, I find myself thinking about how a hand was played as we are listening to the message. I don't get up early any more for my quiet time - because 6am comes early when you are playing until midnight. As I said in the other thread, I do not broadcast or advertise my hobby to my church friends. I don't know their opinion, but do not want it to become the topic for discussion or debate. On the other hand, I have given my brother over $2,000 to help him in time of financial strain - money that I wouldn't have had except for my poker hobby. We have contributed $15,000 to our building project at church - a real stretch that would have been an even bigger stretch without the supplemental income from poker. I give money to my wife out of my bankroll and buy the kids stuff that is not out of our general fund. Ultimately, the gluttony of the new house has driven the behavior (although I played before that). I am potentially ruining lives of people who play with money that they do not have to lose. But if I had a second job, I might be working during the evening and spending time away from the boys. Our small group is founded upon accountability and transparency, yet I keep this corner of my life hidden. So, I guess that I am ashamed of it - and it is probably something that Christ would frown upon.

Just can't get away from the revenue stream...therefore the sin cycle continues

[Cerril]

Alright, let me see what I can say... First, I'm not a Christian but I have a strong background in Catholicism, theology, and philosophy in general. So disregard my thoughts if you'd like.

First off, I've come to see poker as something apart from gambling. At least in the sense that most people take it to mean these days, it's a game of skill. There's a lot of chance involved, risks, and if you aren't good you end up losing money. So it's not directly comparable to a job, or to a hobby. But I think it's different than gambling.

Even so I see some problems as a devout Christian in becoming a poker expert or a poker pro. That's not to say it can't be done, but you face one major obstacle that I see. The attitude required to be successful at poker is one of certainty in your own ability. It's really an excessive amount of pride, and a complete lack of humility (unless you're talking false humility). Now certainly there's nothing wrong with honestly assessing your skills if you -are- that good, but it's definitely a situation where it can be beneficial to have unwavering confidence. For a lot of Christians (but hardly all) that poses a dangerous dilemma. They want to feel humble, self-effacing, and otherwise lack pride. For those people poker is not a good pursuit because they can't get into a winning mindset. But I've felt that these people aren't well suited for any highly competetive activity (many if not most of them would agree with me). So if that's a focus of your faith I'd say leave it as a hobby where you expect to lose.

Similarly of course, the idea of obsession comes in when you take anything too seriously. A job is something you can take very seriously (and desire to be very good at), so I don't see that as a conflict of faith. However, I'm sure it can be taken too far from the standpoint that your only true 'obsession,' as it were, should be with your religion. But that, as has been said, is a question of moderation. And you can play poker with moderation and still improve, you just can't expect to (likely) be a superstar in the poker world. Which you might not even if the game occupied every waking moment.

In the end, really, I think it just comes down to your own attitude - whether you can feel (morally) good about yourself and your activities. If you can't then that's pretty much reason enough to stop.

[Manimal]

I don't mean to try to answer this with such a simple answer, but some times that's what it takes.

A point that has repeatedly been driven home by the pastor at the church I attend is that when something is not specifically prohibited by God's law, then it is something that you must judge yourself. The traditional example is alcohol. If you have a glass of wine or with your dinner, since you enjoy the taste, that's not against God's will, is it? But, obviously, there are some exceptions. Some people feel that it is morally corrupt to drink at all - and should act accordingly. There is also the obvious example of a recovering alcoholic. While that one glass wouldn't be wrong in and of itself, he's leading himself into further temptation and most likely, into sin. Thus, the once innocuous glass of wine is now a temptation.

As a supporting point, my pastor often points out that one thing that is so often looked down upon as sin is material wealth. But, Jesus' ministry flourished financially. What does this tell us? God wants us to be prosperous - He wants us to be happy in all aspects of our lives. He just doesn't want us to place more importance on that happiness than on Him.

My interpretation/application is this:

If you aren't sinning or being tempted to sin by playing poker, and you have the financial ability to do so, play. You can't be concerned that other people are spending more than they can afford. Admittedly, I don't know how often that occurs, but I suspect that it's fairly rare.

[Al Mirpuri]

I, too, am a Christian. Remember that if gambling is a sin that it is only one sin. Do you not commit other sins? If you are free from sin other than poker then give poker up and be completely sinless. If not, then cut the cards and deal. As Martin Luther said, "Sin bravely."

[2283]

what a load of filth. both the content of your message and your tone are regrettable.

remember that if murder is a sin it is only one sin. do you not commit other sins? if you are free from sin other than murdering then give up murder and be completely sinless. if not, then grab the gun and get out there.

so stupid. how about, if poker is a sin, pray to God that he might help you give it up. if it isn't, no worries.

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
what a load of filth. both the content of your message and your tone are regrettable.

remember that if murder is a sin it is only one sin. do you not commit other sins? if you are free from sin other than murdering then give up murder and be completely sinless. if not, then grab the gun and get out there.

so stupid. how about, if poker is a sin, pray to God that he might help you give it up. if it isn't, no worries.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you have murdered one man then there would be not be any reason not to murder a thousand...

[queenhigh]

There are millions of people dying of disease and hunger in Africa, people who could easily be saved if not for the indifference and apathy of people in developed nations. Only 11% of the world has access to the internet. Only 33% of Americans go to college. America is running up a tremendous deficit, the bill for which will be stuck with out kids. (Niether party proposes to end massive tax cuts/entitlement spending because they will not be in office when the [censored] hits the fan.)

There is so much wrong in the world, that poker can't possibly be anywhere on God's radar. Gambling is wrong in that some people who can't afford it are throwing their money away. But they were gonna lose it anyway. It's better it go to a decent person who will be generous with it than some greedy bastard. If there were some kind of petition to end online poker because it is causing a lot of damage to the losers, I would feel morally compelled to sign it. Until that day, play tight and aggressive.

I'm a fairly religious Catholic myself, but I think it's important to think for yourself on questions of morality. Religious rules that aren't based in compassion and human decency are nothing but smoke and mirrors. Remember that Galileo was excommunicated and placed in house arrest for proving a heliocentric solar system.

Is anyone worse off for your playing poker? No. Is anyone worse off if gays are allowed to marry? No. When someone says "That wasn't very Christian" it turns my stomach. As if Jews, Muslims, and athiests don't know better than to be compassionate and honest?

If your religion is important to you, you need to question it, and even flat-out disagree with it sometimes. (That's what Luther did.) Because you are a better and more genereous person than the average online poker player, the world is a better that you win as opposed to someone else. Shouldn't that be all there is to it?

[Mayhap]

Here we all are on one planet. Let's look at what manifests itself on this planet. Let's list three major religions off the top: Christianity, Buddhism, Islam. They are very different from each other. Very reminiscent of a rainbow flop. But that's the point, God expresses randomly, differently; the oneness is in the allness. To one mindset, playing poker may be sinful; to another, it might be communing with God.
/M

[tubbyspencer]

The real question here is whether the “Fundamental Theory of Most Religions”(as I am calling it) and the “Fundamental Theory of Poker”(as Sklansky calls it) are at odds.

Fundamental Theory of Most Religions: The Golden Rule, a subset of which is “Don’t take advantage of other people”.

Fundamental Theory of Poker: You make money when your opponents make mistakes (therefore you make the most money when you find a game where you’re better, and can take advantage of other people’s mistakes, so go find a good game and make some money).

For some(perhaps many) folks, losing a little money playing poker has entertainment value, and little if any actual negative effect on their overall finances. But, unless you stick with the lowest of low limits, you will eventually run into that fish, who is actually hurting himself(and possibly his family) with his gambling excesses.

Shoot. This is all too depressing for me. I’m going to jump back online and play some poker. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]