overpair out of position. advice?

[Leo Bello]

After many posts on the subject and so on, JJ is still one of the biggerh ands that is most difficult to play.
But I doubt only limping in would be the best way to play it. You open yourself to many outdraws, including weaker hands like QT, Q8, Kx, and others. You have a made hand pre-flop, a chance to hit a set and so on. A small raise would made some limpers to go away and help in many hands.

[2283]

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I agree with climbrock, not raising JJ in MP because you might get reraised is worthless. That's like saying you shouldn't raise premium hands because what if they don't hit on the flop.

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i dont think it's like that at all.

[NotAClue]

Unless you're at an extremely aggressive table, or you're at a table with a bunch of people that'll call pf raises with Kx, Ax, or Qx and once they hit TP on the flop wont let their hand go, you need to open-raise with JJ. Open-limping with it is a disaster, ESPECIALLY when you end up overplaying it.

As others have already said, at the very least check-call/fold the river. In certain circumstances I would fold the river to the raise. Since the CO is new to the table, you really don't have a read on him, so you probably have to call. But many times, the river completes a couple straight draws and a couple two-pair draws.

[ClimbRock512]

What is it like then? I don't understand why you wouldn't raise with JJ?

[AZK]

I think not raising JJ preflop is just encouraging people with worse hands than you to catch up and outdraw you on the flop. While JJ is good, there are only a handfull of flops that look really nice, I don't think I ever feel truly comfortable on a flop that doesn't resemble JJx, or Jxxr.

Also, this is microlimit NL online, people will play with you anyway, why not raise when you most likely have the best of it?

I think the best EV edge JJ has is preflop, there isn't another street that even comes close. If someone reraises you preflop, you can take it from there based on odds to hit a set/raisers standards and so forth, but if you don't raise, you have no idea where you stand on the flop.

[2283]

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or you're at a table with a bunch of people that'll call pf raises with Kx, Ax, or Qx and once they hit TP on the flop wont let their hand go

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that's pretty much it.

[AZK]

This just sounds like weaktight thinking to me...I don't knwo why, someone please correct me if I'm wrong...In essence, you think that you lose more raising preflop, than you would on the entire hand limping in preflop? Do you people not want others at the table calling your preflop raises with Kx, Ax? I know I do. They are drawing to 3 outs, I suppose you are thinking of this in terms of as a collective the entire table is drawing out on you but I think that's the weak part of this....anyone disagree? other than 2283?

Side note, nothing prevents you from raising preflop and then mucking your hand post flop if the board comes overs and you are bet into...if you can do that, and I know you can from playing with you, then this shouldn't be a problem.

[HonestPete]

Played it reasonably well just got bit unlucky, but something to consider is betting heavier. Im no mathematician but perhaps you made it too tempting for him to have a peak esp as he picked up the double belly buster on 4th street. Even though JJ looks sexy, it aint much really, esp as hes limped he could easily hit 2pr or any random hand esp with all those low cards. Bigger bet on flop, you may win very little, but better than letting them hit lucky and busting you.

JJ = caution

Good Luck

Pete

[Leo Bello]

I agree with you here, from playing with 2283, he knows how to disguise hands, and actually has a strong post-flop play.
It is just like that, we all have our preferences. One example is my play of AK. I find it extremely difficult when I get it to play.
I know I must raise before the flop sufficiently to make the weaker drawing hands to fold. Less callers best for me, cause I will be drawing also.
But I have had so many beats (and you always remeber more of your beats) with this hand, that everytime I question myself if it is worth.
The answer is in Poker Tracker. Although I have lost many hands, there were many more won, and it stays as a winning hand. So, I must continue following the good advice and open raising with it and knowing when to drop it (the most difficult, letting a hand go).
I guess that is the kind of experience with JJ. Go review your JJ hands. See what was the best approach. Limping? Raising?
See you two at UB.

[2283]

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This just sounds like weaktight thinking to me...I don't know why, someone please correct me if I'm wrong...In essence, you think that you lose more raising preflop, than you would on the entire hand limping in preflop? Do you people not want others at the table calling your preflop raises with Kx, Ax? I know I do. They are drawing to 3 outs, I suppose you are thinking of this in terms of as a collective the entire table is drawing out on you but I think that's the weak part of this....anyone disagree? other than 2283?

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well, i think i will have a greater net gain limping here than raising long term. it seems like i win small pots or lose big ones with JJ out of position when i raise preflop.

i do want them calling my raises with Ax, Kx, Qx when i'm in late position because the pots i lose tend to be half the size and the pots i win tend to be twice as large.

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Side note, nothing prevents you from raising preflop and then mucking your hand post flop if the board comes overs and you are bet into...if you can do that, and I know you can from playing with you, then this shouldn't be a problem.

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the key for me is that im out of position. maybe i've just been a little unlucky with them but i feel like jacks dont hold up often enough for my liking. i've been beaten too many times by QQ, random 2 pair, Kx that catches, all kinds of draws, etc. being out of position means i have to bet enough to protect my hand but not so much that i find myself committed to a pot even when it looks like i've been outdrawn (as in this thread).

there seems to be some consensus though, i'm willing to try raising it for a while and see how it goes.