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  #1  
Old 12-10-2005, 01:10 AM
surfinillini surfinillini is offline
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Default Buying in Short in Mid NL games

Quick question for large game regulars.

Is there any advantage to buying short, say for an amount like $500 into a 5/10NL game where the average stack is 3K.

If you play tight would this be a good strategy or is it better to buy in for the table average or table maximum?
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Old 12-10-2005, 01:27 AM
soah soah is offline
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Default Re: Buying in Short in Mid NL games

Would this be live or online? I don't have enough personal experience to form my own opinion, but based upon things I've read here, I'd assume this would work a lot better in certain live games than most online games. Most mid-stakes online games that I've seen haven't featured much loose action preflop, but it seems a lot more common in live games for players to open the pot for 5-10 BB (and get callers). This is certainly what you're looking for with a short stack... you just want to wait for big hands and get your money in preflop.
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Old 12-10-2005, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: Buying in Short in Mid NL games

It lets players like Phil Hellmuth play without too many post-flop decisions. Judging from the hand histories, I am not sure it has been working out for him.
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Old 12-10-2005, 02:07 AM
Woolygimp Woolygimp is offline
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Default Re: Buying in Short in Mid NL games

Ed Miller is a big advocate of the Short Stack No-limit strategy. He basically says NL is a flawed game because of it. Essentially you buy-in with just enough to make NL holdem a 2 betting round game.
The strategy basically states that you have to use extreme PF discretion and only raise with premium hands. When you do raise enough to where you commit yourself to an all-in on the flop no matter what.

So it's Raise PF, All-In flop. Rinse Repeat.

Hellmuth uses this strategy at the 100/200 UB games, it's a strategy best employed against better players.

It's a winning strategy that a person with downsyndrome can use, hellmuth is just in a standard downswing.
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Old 12-10-2005, 02:08 AM
The Ocho The Ocho is offline
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Default Re: Buying in Short in Mid NL games

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question for large game regulars.

Is there any advantage to buying short, say for an amount like $500 into a 5/10NL game where the average stack is 3K.

If you play tight would this be a good strategy or is it better to buy in for the table average or table maximum?

[/ QUOTE ]

its a good strategy. tried and true (though boring) way to build a bankroll.
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  #6  
Old 12-10-2005, 10:12 AM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Buying in Short in Mid NL games

I'd be really interested to here from someone that actually uses this strategy in practice. I see people trying it form time to time in my games.
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2005, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: Buying in Short in Mid NL games

In the Nov. (maybe Oct.) issue of card player Jim Rose wrote a section called (how to make 28.00$ an hour playing poker). It was simply the wait for premo shortstack style. He told Chris ferguson about it, and in 6 months he turned 10$ into 18K if i remember correctly, check there archives if you interested in reading more.
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Old 12-10-2005, 12:27 PM
FlyingStart FlyingStart is offline
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Default Re: Buying in Short in Mid NL games

Shouldn't this be very easy to counter? Real simple would be to never give them action (unless you hold premium) and steal their blinds every round. If you notice that their range is bigger than premium pockets and that they fold to reraises preflop unless they have high pairs, you can start reraising them with junk from time to time. If the shortstack is the type that goes allin on the flop if you give him initiative every time, start calling raises with high broadwaycards and check to him on the flop (He should have medium pockets in his range also tho, or else you will be dominated too often.
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  #9  
Old 12-10-2005, 12:36 PM
slickpoppa slickpoppa is offline
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Default Re: Buying in Short in Mid NL games

If you just have to worry about the short stack, then the strategy is easy to counter. But what makes the strategy viable is when the big stacks are playing back at each other and not letting people isolate the short stack.
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  #10  
Old 12-10-2005, 01:12 PM
surfinillini surfinillini is offline
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Default Re: Buying in Short in Mid NL games

All this debate about short stack buy in has got me thinking.

I'm going to try this out today here in LA and post a little summary later.

-surf

edit: Is the this the article you were talking about:

Tell us about this system you’ve come up with.

I worked on this game theory, just for kicks. I worked out a guaranteed way to win $28 an hour in Vegas, which is a decent living for a lot of people, but it doesn’t really interest me much. But I needed to see if it would work.

There are so many maniacs at the casino. A lot of people watch TV and think they have figured out poker because they’ve watched it for an hour. They don’t realize it’s 12 hours of shooting and they’ve edited it down to an hour. All you see is bluffs gone bad and maniac moves that go well – and that’s not real poker.

So I worked it out with millions of simulations on the computer and then went and did it for a seven month period, five days a week, and it came out at $28.64 an hour. Here’s how it works. You play the low blind games. I would say the best ones to play are the $2/$5 games. In a low blind game, a bunch of chips is not strength, it’s vulnerability – unless you’re one of the best players around (and if you’re one of the best players around you wouldn’t be playing the $2/$5 games!). Too many people want to look at a flop and anybody playing the $2/$5 has only a certain level of ability. That means that their big chip stack in front of them, if they stay there long enough, is gonna get sucked out from under them.

What is the only move a pro would make if he was on a short stack? He would go all-in if he had A-A, K-K, Q-Q or A-K. So I’ve simplified the game down to one move, because that is the move the best pro in the world would make.

So, you buy in for $140 – let everyone else have the big stacks. You sit there and wait for one of those four hands. If you’ve got a maniac to your left, you limp in and let him raise it and go all-in when it comes back to you. You’re going to see one of those combos on average once in about 43 or 44 hands. So, say you’ve blinded down to about $120. If no one calls you when you go all in, you’ll have probably picked up about forty dollars. So now you’re at $160. Then you’ll blind down another $20 or so (your original buy-in), before you get a shot at it again. If someone does call you the first time, and you win, you’re at about $240 and you’re $100 ahead, so you cash out and put your name back on the list, or walk across the street to another casino and do the same thing.

It’s just money management. You cash out and buy back in for $140 and do the same thing again. It’s foolproof. It’s chump bait, because if you’re down to $140 and there are all these big stacks, and there’s already $60 in the pot, someone’s going to call you with a KJ suited or whatever.

Chris “Jesus” Ferguson – who’s a good friend of mine – took a dollar and turned it into $20,000 over a five-month period using my system – just for a lark in his spare time. Isn’t that funny? They’re a little tighter online than they are in Vegas, so what you want to do is play four screens at the same time, each with sixty dollars. Doing that will actually make you more money. That comes to $37 per hour and some change.
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