SSNL F.A.Q. v2.0

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't advice. It was my personal opinion. I'm not gonna call 10BBs preflop with 33 in HOPES that someone has KJo to race for a pot in which I've invested nothing. Sure, going in with 33 against KJo is definitely +EV, but I choose to put 10BBs in preflop in better spots. Like I said, "That's just my preference, though."


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not an accurate example of a slightly +EV situation. Under any normal circumstances you will have no way of putting your opponent on exactly two high cards. A hand that's been pushed preflop has an inordinate probability of being a pocket pair that crushes you. Your hand is considerably behind the likely mathematical range of your opponents', hence this is a -EV call. I think you're being slightly disingenuous here for the sake of your argument.

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I guess I'm missing the parts where I come off as condescending.

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Permit some examples.

1)Q: Damn, I just got outdrawn for a monster pot. Do you want to hear about it?

A: Absolutely not. Nobody cares. Unless you're a well respected poster who has provided many replies in this forum, you will be flamed for a bad beat post. Earn your stripes before you bitch.

This strikes me as completely unnecessary. Firstly, the smug suggestion of disciplinary action: "Oh, you will get flamed, joker." Secondly, you seem to suggest some kind of "Heirarchy of Useless Complaints" ('earn your stripes,' etc.) that's just an arrogant and pointless suggestion. A bad beat post w/ no other content or useful point to ponder is a waste of time and energy regardless of the post count of the originator. There's no place in it for "earned rights."

2)Q: I'm pretty sure that so-and-so is giving awful advice, should I trust it?

A: I urge you to differentiate the advice of a quality poster's between a random nitwit's. Figure out who offers solid replies and you'll be fine.

This really adds nothing. If you're not going to list the "nitwits," then what use is this? If you want to maintain decorum, then why take some vague, blanket shot like this?

Also, I see no reason why you couldn't include a short "general poker" list including ToP, "The Psychology of Poker," "Poker Essays" and so forth, as they contain invaluable ideas applicable to any game, plus provide the easy plug for our hosts that the previous poster suggested.

This is otherwise an above-average FAQ that addresses the relevant topics clearly & succinctly.

[-Skeme-]

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This is not an accurate example of a slightly +EV situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The situation was 33 Vs. KJo. How is this not slightly +EV? I understand that you have no way of knowing the opponent has two high cards.. that was my point.


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This strikes me as completely unnecessary.

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It's a warning to anybody who's going to make their first post about a bad beat as they WILL get flamed and abused. Posts with little to no content ARE tolerated when they're posted by known members who've contributed many helpful posts in the past.

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Under any normal circumstances you will have no way of putting your opponent on exactly two high cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was exactly my point.


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This really adds nothing. If you're not going to list the "nitwits," then what use is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's useful as some new players will think everybody here offers good advice. When I first started browsing I saw lot's of advice I found a bit shaky. A lot of it indeed was bad advice. I felt like 2+2 was a crappy forum at first. Fortunately I was just reading a few posts by idiots and when I learned the difference between a solid poster and a bad one, I loved 2+2. Listing people I myself find to be nitwits would be condescending.. warning people that there are indeed nitwits out there isn't.


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If you want to maintain decorum, then why take some vague, blanket shot like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a cheap shot at anybody. It's a warning that there is good and bad advice in this forum. Apparently questioning people's advice here is frowned upon as I am called stubborn when I second guess the replies I receive in my own threads.


[ QUOTE ]
Also, I see no reason why you couldn't include a short "general poker" list including ToP, "The Psychology of Poker," "Poker Essays" and so forth, as they contain invaluable ideas applicable to any game, plus provide the easy plug for our hosts that the previous poster suggested.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because this is frequently asked questions for small stakes no limit hold 'em. I wanted it to be a FAQ for how to fare well in this forum, then it became more and more strategy related as others started adding more questions for it. This is becoming frustrating as NLHE is such an abyss of information that I cannot list them all in a simple FAQ. Not to mention I don't know the answers to everything. If I list tournament books and general poker books which deal mostly with limit poker, then I should go ahead and list books dealing with Omaha aswell. People in the General Poker forum can make a FAQ and drop ToPs name in there.

Or I can just send whoever else wants to do this my .txt file and they can take it from here.

[JohnnyFX]

A: Any of the following would be excellent choices for reading material:

<ul type="square">[*]PL &amp; NL Poker by Bob Ciaffone &amp; Stewart Reuben[*]Super System by Doyle Brunson[*]Championship No-Limit &amp; Pot-Limit Hold'Em by TJ Cloutier[/list]

I would add Harrington on Hold'em Part 1, since it has plenty of excellent non-tournament specific NL advice.

[EMcWilliams]

While I did find the general tone of the FAQ a bit condescending, I think it sets a good tone for a new person to this forum. I been on the forums for only a few months, which is enough give or take to know what I doing, but still a short amount of time, and found it useful.

As for bad beat posts, every player gets them and needs someone to vent to about them. I feel if you do not talk to people about it, it just builds up inside of you and affects your game in a very negative manner.

This is a forum, a place where people come to get advice. We honestly shouldn't say welll only Skeme or Fimbul (both of whom I greatly respect) can post the what they want (which was not said exactly, but I felt as if it were implied.) Anyone should feel free to post any question they have, cause that is what we are here for. There are times were I feel that my question may seem basic and stupid, an easy situation or concept that everyone here knows, but then I realzed I am here to ask those questions and that if I had a question, I sure there are many others out there that do too.

I liked 90% of the FAQ, and overall I applaud Skeme for taking the initative

[PorscheNGuns]

No part of Championship No Limit and Pot Limit Holdem by Cloutier/McEvoy covers cash NL. The book deals with Pot Limit cash games and NL Tournaments.

Rueben/Ciaffone's book is probably the best IMO for small stakes NL and especially for beginners.

-Matt

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
The situation was 33 Vs. KJo. How is this not slightly +EV? I understand that you have no way of knowing the opponent has two high cards.. that was my point.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is... very strange. You start out by suggesting that we somehow KNOW that "the raiser" has exactly two high cards (which we would not in any real situation; that's the point), then in the very next breath, making my point for me.

The situation is NOT 33 vs. KJo. The situation is 33 vs. Some Hand Somebody Bet Ten Big Blinds With. No strong player is advocating calling/raising for value here with 33 and calling it "slightly +EV." The very suggestion is a straw-man argument.

I know that you know that this isn't a +EV situation. My point is that nobody else is making this claim either. This is a matter of mathematics, not preference.

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It's a warning to anybody who's going to make their first post about a bad beat as they WILL get flamed and abused. Posts with little to no content ARE tolerated when they're posted by known members who've contributed many helpful posts in the past.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you basing this on? Is your finger connected to the social pulse of SSNL, in some profound fashion? Generally speaking, when somebody posts a bad beat, somebody will reply with something short and to the point, along the lines of "this is wasting our time." I've yet to encounter anything along the lines of "I was gonna roast your ass for this until I saw your post count. Mad propz, dawg!" This isn't the Long Island Country Club Society Luncheon. Nobody gives a [censored], so far as I can tell. Bad posts are bad posts.

[FreakDaddy]

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The situation was 33 Vs. KJo. How is this not slightly +EV? I understand that you have no way of knowing the opponent has two high cards.. that was my point.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is... very strange. You start out by suggesting that we somehow KNOW that "the raiser" has exactly two high cards (which we would not in any real situation; that's the point), then in the very next breath, making my point for me.

The situation is NOT 33 vs. KJo. The situation is 33 vs. Some Hand Somebody Bet Ten Big Blinds With. No strong player is advocating calling/raising for value here with 33 and calling it "slightly +EV." The very suggestion is a straw-man argument.

I know that you know that this isn't a +EV situation. My point is that nobody else is making this claim either. This is a matter of mathematics, not preference.

[ QUOTE ]
It's a warning to anybody who's going to make their first post about a bad beat as they WILL get flamed and abused. Posts with little to no content ARE tolerated when they're posted by known members who've contributed many helpful posts in the past.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you basing this on? Is your finger connected to the social pulse of SSNL, in some profound fashion? Generally speaking, when somebody posts a bad beat, somebody will reply with something short and to the point, along the lines of "this is wasting our time." I've yet to encounter anything along the lines of "I was gonna roast your ass for this until I saw your post count. Mad propz, dawg!" This isn't the Long Island Country Club Society Luncheon. Nobody gives a [censored], so far as I can tell. Bad posts are bad posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're missing the point anacardo. Skeme is a young kid who knows all. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you'll realize that it doesn't matter what you say. You're just wearing down your keyboard pressing those letters. Please don't commit keyboard abuse!

Just pushing your buttons Skeme. I know you hate me. It's kind of funny to me at this point because I have no idea how you can hate someone you haven't met, but I'm open to learning new things.

In all seriousness, I've been an advocate of getting a FAQ here. Skeme’s shown strong initiative here. He's got a lot of good info that needs some revision. If we could get an adult to work with him on it, perhaps we could get something that would be helpful to us all.. ie.. newbies can refer to the FAQ instead of asking us the same questions over and over (although it still will happen a bit).

I'd be willing to work with Skeme, for I'm a published writer, but he hates me so that's not going to work. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Hopefully someone else will step up.

[wtfsvi]

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It's a warning to anybody who's going to make their first post about a bad beat as they WILL get flamed and abused. Posts with little to no content ARE tolerated when they're posted by known members who've contributed many helpful posts in the past.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you basing this on? Is your finger connected to the social pulse of SSNL, in some profound fashion? Generally speaking, when somebody posts a bad beat, somebody will reply with something short and to the point, along the lines of "this is wasting our time." I've yet to encounter anything along the lines of "I was gonna roast your ass for this until I saw your post count. Mad propz, dawg!" This isn't the Long Island Country Club Society Luncheon. Nobody gives a [censored], so far as I can tell. Bad posts are bad posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

When well respected posters post bad beats or generally low content stuff, it is accepted. I'm sure there are several reasons for this, and I'm sure one of them is that the post will have a humorous tone. And that the title won't be "I JUST LOST $25!!!! Could I get away from this hand?!?!!?!" when they got it in with the nuts on flop and turn.

I agree that saying it's ok if you're a well respected poster doesn't fit well in a FAQ though. It makes us come across as a little "Hey new kid! Stfu and listen to us pro's." The FAQ should say that bad beat posts are not accepted.

EDIT: And you are right about the 33 vs. KJo thing. It makes no sense to not be a fan of being a small favourite in cash games. As long as you're not a very very small favourite on a non-huge bankroll. Skeme does state that it is his personal preference, (and who am I to tell him what personal preferences he should have,) but I think it might confuse the new people who read the FAQ.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
No part of Championship No Limit and Pot Limit Holdem by Cloutier/McEvoy covers cash NL. The book deals with Pot Limit cash games and NL Tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. It deals with cash games aswell as tournaments. The first half of the book deals with NL Hold 'Em concepts that can be applied to cash games. That's the basis of the first part of the book. The second have breaks into PL Tournaments, followed by NL Tournaments and then ending in random tales from TJ.

"The bible to winning Hold'Em tournaments and cash games."


[ QUOTE ]
This is... very strange. You start out by suggesting that we somehow KNOW that "the raiser" has exactly two high cards (which we would not in any real situation; that's the point), then in the very next breath, making my point for me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but you read my original statement wrong. I'll clarify for you. I originally said I don't prefer calling with a baby pair in HOPES that somebody only has overcards. This is my original statement:


[ QUOTE ]
not gonna call 10BBs preflop with 33 in HOPES that someone has KJo to race for a pot in which I've invested nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's when I went into the assumption that I somehow KNEW I was against KJo for the sake of the argument. This is my original statement:


[ QUOTE ]
Sure, going in with 33 against KJo is definitely +EV, but I choose to put 10BBs in preflop in better spots. Like I said, "That's just my preference, though."


[/ QUOTE ]


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The situation is 33 vs. Some Hand Somebody Bet Ten Big Blinds With. No strong player is advocating calling/raising for value here with 33 and calling it "slightly +EV."

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't understand how you can't see that THIS WAS MY POINT. I didn't suggest calling with small pairs in hopes it was a higher hand. I even posted HOPES in caps to enunciate how I felt about it.


[ QUOTE ]
I know that you know that this isn't a +EV situation. My point is that nobody else is making this claim either. This is a matter of mathematics, not preference.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a matter of your reading ability. I stated that calling 10xBB with 33 hoping for a race situation is -EV. I then stated if you KNOW that you're up against KJo, this is indeed slightly +EV.


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Nobody gives a [censored], so far as I can tell. Bad posts are bad posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, and I'm telling new people NOT to make them. When somebody comes along and whines about getting it all in with the nuts on the turn, it's annoying. And when I see someone do that I automatically assume that they're idiots. Maybe that's just me personally, but others might aswell. And that's a terrible way to introduce yourself. Whatever, post all the bad beats you want.


[ QUOTE ]
I think you're missing the point anacardo. Skeme is a young kid who knows all. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you'll realize that it doesn't matter what you say. You're just wearing down your keyboard pressing those letters. Please don't commit keyboard abuse!

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I'm insanely sick of your stupidity. Seriously, shut the [censored] up. You are an annoying idiot.


[ QUOTE ]
Just pushing your buttons Skeme. I know you hate me. It's kind of funny to me at this point because I have no idea how you can hate someone you haven't met, but I'm open to learning new things.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty simple to hate you, Freak. You're an idiot. You toss out worthless and rude claims that I'm some stubborn little kid who won't admit to being wrong or accept anyone's advice. You make wild claims of my negative comments in response to advice in my strategy threads, but without proof. I ask you to quote them, you don't. I tell you that I'm not stubborn, just driven for answers, you call me stubborn again. You're in your own little world.. and above all you're the biggest hypocrite I've ever encountered.


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If we could get an adult to work with him on it, perhaps we could get something that would be helpful to us all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, because a little kid such as myself can never get this down. It's such a trivial task that nobody as immature and young as -Skeme- could do it. Right, this is DEFENITELY not condescending.

[PorscheNGuns]

Championship No-Limit and Pot-Limit Holdem

Chapter 1 - Intro (4 pages)
Chapter 2 - Getting to Know Your Opponents (16 pages)
Chapter 3 - Pot Limit Holdem Strategy (52 pages)
Chapter 4 - How to Win PL Holdem Tournaments (26 pages)
Chapter 5 - How to Win NL Holdem Tournaments (66 pages)
Chapter 6 - Secrets to Winning the WSOP (16 pages)
Chapter 7 - NL Tournament Practice Hands (48 pages)
Chapter 8 - Tales From TJ (24 pages)
Chapter 9 - A Conversation with TJ (24 pages)
Chapter 10 - Final Advice (2 pages)

With the Foreword and Table of Contents, the book is 294 pages long. And you say the first 147 deals with NL cash concepts?

Not only does the first half deal nothing with NL cash game concepts, but hardly ONE page in the book deals with NL cash concepts (even "Getting to Know Your Opponents" is weighted towards tournament poker)

Maybe I just got the edition where he mysteriously cut out the first half of the book. Maybe you should note that in your FAQ.

But save that, do not take a condescending tone with me, because as far as I'm concerned, you are my bitch and I will slap you down like one.

-Matt