Odd passive td line

[fnord_too]

I think every street is open for debate.

Player A is at seat 0 with $1288.50.
fnord is at seat 1 with $553.
Player B is at seat 2 with $1006.
Player C is at seat 3 with $632.
The button is at seat 0.

fnord posts the small blind of $5.
Player B posts the big blind of $10.

Player A: -- -- -- -- --
fnord: 2s Qh As 3s 7s
Player B: -- -- -- -- --
Player C: -- -- -- -- --

First Round:

Player C folds. Player A raises to $20. fnord
calls. Player B folds.

fnord takes 2 cards. Player A takes 1 card.

Player A: -- -- -- -- --
fnord: 2s 3s 7s Ks 4c

Second Round:

fnord checks. Player A bets $10. fnord calls.

fnord takes 1 card. Player A stands pat.

Player A: -- -- -- -- --
fnord: 2s 3s 7s 4c 9h

Third Round:

fnord checks. Player A bets $20. fnord calls.

fnord stands pat. Player A stands pat.

Player A: -- -- -- -- --
fnord: 2s 3s 7s 4c 9h

Final Round:

fnord checks.

[dibbs]

Pre-flop usually a 3-bet for me, but I don't mind smooth-calling against a decent player, assuming you don't think B will call a lot of the time.

I like check calling after the first draw, chances are you are smoother drawing than he is if he missed but I can't see any point in making this pot bigger than it has to be.

Second round standard.

Unless you have reason to beleive this guy would stand pat with a T or a really rough nine here, I'd try and break on the final draw, I can't see your nine holding up a lot of the time against an average opponent, but I don't know the guy.

As for the general passive nature of the hand, out of position headsup I really don't mind mixing it up and kind of chilling out a bit, gives a little more credibility to your bets and makes the decent thinking players know that you don't follow a strict pattern.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop usually a 3-bet for me, but I don't mind smooth-calling against a decent player, assuming you don't think B will call a lot of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are making a HUGE mistake. Think about the reasons why its a good 3-bet, and the reasons why it's not. Discuss.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop usually a 3-bet for me, but I don't mind smooth-calling against a decent player, assuming you don't think B will call a lot of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are making a HUGE mistake. Think about the reasons why its a good 3-bet, and the reasons why it's not. Discuss.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take a swing at this, just to demonstrate my ignorance.

Pro:
Strong draw to a 7. Button may be on a steal and have a weaker hand.
Isolate, don't let the BB in for 5:1 odds.

Con:
Position, position, position.

[dibbs]

Being in the beginning stages, I stick pretty strictly to an auto 3-bet here against an average player, mainly cuz I want to get it headsup and against average players I usually am drawing better (in .25/.50 .50/1). Cons I can see with 3-betting here are creating a big pot out of position, and against one card draws and 234 etc. you are in bad shape, correct?

Smooth-calling keeps the pot small against a possibly dominated hand OOP, but B may come along a fair amount of the time.

If I play a hand I'm almost always in there raising and re-raising, 237 isn't an exception for me, don't know if this is correct at higher levels against decent opponents however. The only hands I smooth-call with occasionally are 236s 26x etc. against players who may have questionable raising standards.

Your thoughts?

[randomstumbl]

As I keep working on improving my game, I'm liking your call in the first round more and more. You're probably slightly ahead most of the time, but when you're not, you're way, way behind and you're out of position to boot.

The second round seems standard. Obviously, betting out is a terrible line. Check raising is closer, but you're getting 3-bet everytime he's pat. So, I don't see a lot of value in the move. You'd just get an extra bet in when you have a slight edge and two extra bets when you're a big dog.

The third round is the most interesting to me. I keep wanting to check raise this some percentage of the time, but I'm not sure that's right. With a check raise, it's going to be hard for the opponent to three bet, but it's going to make it easy to break a rougher hand and easy to call down with a better hand.

On the end, I think you basically have to check/call. If you're ahead, he's usually going to check behind. I wonder if you could fold here when he bets on occasion. Most solid players aren't going to bet with a 97 or worse here. The value in folding is that you save 1 BB AND you get an image as a weak-tight player. That'll allow you to pick up more bets on the river when people attempt to bluff you when they pair up. Of course, if you do fold in a situation like this once in a session, you're going to have to call down with much weaker hands later. Any one have any thoughts about folding some small percentage of the time here?

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Being in the beginning stages, I stick pretty strictly to an auto 3-bet here against an average player, mainly cuz I want to get it headsup and against average players I usually am drawing better (in .25/.50 .50/1). Cons I can see with 3-betting here are creating a big pot out of position, and against one card draws and 234 etc. you are in bad shape, correct?

Smooth-calling keeps the pot small against a possibly dominated hand OOP, but B may come along a fair amount of the time.

If I play a hand I'm almost always in there raising and re-raising, 237 isn't an exception for me, don't know if this is correct at higher levels against decent opponents however. The only hands I smooth-call with occasionally are 236s 26x etc. against players who may have questionable raising standards.

Your thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis Dibs, your thought process is moving in the right direction but there are some contradictions in your statements we can discuss.

1) TD is a serious thinking game, in some ways more so than Hold'em. "auto-betting" isn't the answer, I don't auto-bet anything in this game (even with the nutz)... we have to know WHY we are betting or calling to maximize our play. Hence why I asked for this discussion.

2) With Two card draws are strong hands indeed, and generally worth an open raise. But they are rarely worth a re-raise without additional information. Your opponents hand is a huge variable, as is the ability to draw to a winning hand. 237 Has to draw 2 cards to form a perfect 7 (8 outs 3x), 2 cards to a rough 7 (12 outs 3x). Reasonable odds but not something I feel like investing more bets with pre-flop with. Remember the average td player with play almost any hand for any number of bets pre-flop because they really don't understand the game yet, so pushing them out with a 3-bet when your hand may be completely dominated AND you are out of position is pointless.

3) Page 479 of SSII says "The majority of hands you play before the first draw will be two-card draws". He then goes on to list two card draws that can be played for any amount of bets before the draw (2-3-7 is included of course because its a strong starting hand since it gives the opportunity to make a wheel without the possibility of a straight draw). But if you continue reading on, Danny says: " If you are dealt any of these hands, raise it. In fact, if you are in position, I would advise re-raising." Since Hero is out of position, Danny's advise is to not reraise... simple as that.

3) There is a lot of chip spewing by TD players. Smooth-calling keeps this down at a minimum. Play smart, play aggressive, but play it safe when you are out of position in this game. The button holds a HUGE advantage over you!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[randomstumbl]

[ QUOTE ]
"auto-betting" isn't the answer, I don't auto-bet anything in this game (even with the nutz)...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this is really nitpicky, but I can't let this statment go. Any round that you're heads up and a card ahead you should auto-bet in this game. Other than that, great post.

[fnord_too]

Good discussion.

Three betting pre flop is something I usually don't do, but I don't think it is a bad change of pace. I think I am usually ahead of button raise here, but being oop really sucks. (For reference, I believe the standard in this game is to raise any two card draw on the button, even with hands like 865. A three bet from the blinds usually means 1 card draw, or occasionally good 2 card draw, like 237, 247.)

On the flop I seriously considered check raising, but him only taking one and again being oop really sucks.

The turn was where everything got really interesting. I have a lot of lines open to me: Check raise and see if he breaks a better hand, and bet the river if he just calls. Check call and bet the river if he stands pat (that has a chance of making a rough 8 fold I think). Bet and stand pat, but getting raised if I bet kind of sucks because it does not really tell me anything unless I am willing to 3-bet. (Being out of position here just kills me in the information war, all the information I can get costs me more and is more unreliable.) Or I can take the line I took, check call pat check and scream weak pat hand.

On the river a bet is interesting because it looks really strong, but I don't think many hands I beat fold, though one or two may.

He checked behind and showed a T8 and mhig.

[dibbs]

Great post TT, thanks for your thoughts.

Relevant to your advice on position, one passage from SS2 I often try and emphasize to myself (it is specifically about play after the 2nd draw but still holds true on all streets I feel)

"This is an important concept to understand. When out of position, you need to think about minimalizing your losses by avoiding marginal value bets."

Interesting because I think position is actually more important in TD than holdem.

Thanks again for the discussion.