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#1
06-11-2004, 10:34 AM
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Seed vs. MM vs. VArkonyi vs. MCEvoy
An earlier thread here talking about moneymaker yet again bashing him about not being "great".
In there, they compare him to Seed as a hot flash. So why does MM take so much abuse on these boards, compared to the guys i mentioned above?? He won the WSOP, a dream cometrue for anyone here, and is now using some of his $$$$ for entries into other bigger tourneys now.......what is wrong with that....any of you would do the same...... And he is getting results, as an individual about as many as many other well known pros. In fact, more so than say....Seed, mortenson, rick hamilton, etc etc.... fact is, a bet there are more ex-champions out there still struggling to make a buck than there are continuing successful former champions. And wasnt the best player ever, Stu Ungar, also going broke time after time? Does that make him a 'hot' flash.....the best player ever. People should stop critiquing players for winning, its a great thing, and it could happen to any of us with the right mix of cards and some luck (cuz i assume anyone on this board already has the basic skillset) 
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#3
06-11-2004, 11:24 AM
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Re: Seed vs. MM vs. VArkonyi vs. MCEvoy
The best players aren't those that make the best plays, they are those who make the fewest mistakes. Anyone can trap someone for a few extra chips. It's the greats that skillfully avoid those traps by judging when a hand isn't best.
Moneymaker knows all there is to know about pot odds and semi bluffing and anything TPFAP could tell you, and all the fundamentals, but I don't believe he has +EV in any major tourney. Fossilman, in his TT vs. AA and AT vs. AK hands, could afford to gamble with his monster stack - he was never all in with way the worst of it the way MM was. The best players just don't get all in with the worst of it often enough to suck out. Moneymaker knows what he's doing but he's not anywhere near the calibre of Seed or most of the name players.
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#4
06-11-2004, 12:22 PM
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What separates the MEN from the boys.
I think the thing that most of you don't understand is that fearlessness is by far the most important ingrediant between a good player and a great. Some people have it naturally, some people acquire it because of circumstance change, and some people learn it.
I think the thing that separates us from the big names is that they know that they can go on to the next tournament if they lose, so they have no problem pulling the trigger when they sense weakness in thier opponents, hence they accumulate chips at a much faster rate. There has to be some initial poker talent and tons of studying and experience, but after you get to the "very good player" stage, you either already have the fearlessness, learn that trait, or acquire it because the money has become less important to you. Just my thoughts. Peace Goodie
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#5
06-11-2004, 03:39 PM
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Re: Seed vs. MM vs. VArkonyi vs. MCEvoy
[ QUOTE ]
Moneymaker knows all there is to know about pot odds and semi bluffing and anything TPFAP could tell you, and all the fundamentals, but I don't believe he has +EV in any major tourney. [/ QUOTE ] I am not a MM detractor, but I think you're giving him waaaay too much credit. He does not appear to be all that knowledgeable on the math to me. OTOH, I like him as a player (I'm not sure this contradicts your EV assessment), and wish him well.
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#6
06-11-2004, 04:06 PM
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Re: Seed vs. MM vs. VArkonyi vs. MCEvoy
I wouldn't be surprised if you're right, but if went into the WSOP without having read TOP/HPFAP/TPFAP, well that's akin to walking into a final exam having never seen the syllabus.
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#7
06-11-2004, 07:08 PM
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Re: Seed vs. MM vs. VArkonyi vs. MCEvoy
[ QUOTE ]
An earlier thread here talking about moneymaker yet again bashing him about not being "great". In there, they compare him to Seed as a hot flash. So why does MM take so much abuse on these boards, compared to the guys i mentioned above?? He won the WSOP, a dream cometrue for anyone here, and is now using some of his $$$$ for entries into other bigger tourneys now.......what is wrong with that....any of you would do the same...... And he is getting results, as an individual about as many as many other well known pros. In fact, more so than say....Seed, mortenson, rick hamilton, etc etc.... fact is, a bet there are more ex-champions out there still struggling to make a buck than there are continuing successful former champions. And wasnt the best player ever, Stu Ungar, also going broke time after time? Does that make him a 'hot' flash.....the best player ever. People should stop critiquing players for winning, its a great thing, and it could happen to any of us with the right mix of cards and some luck (cuz i assume anyone on this board already has the basic skillset) [/ QUOTE ] The problem with this post is this, Huck Seed and Tom McEvoy have 4 WSOP bracelets each. Varkonyi and MM have only won Major tournament win each. So, to summarize my point Seed and McEvoy are not even close to comparable to MM or Varkonyi. There are only 23 people that have won 4 WSOP bracelets or more and for the record seed's bracelets were won in 1994, 1996, 2000 and 2003, while McEvoy's were 1983 (two), 1986 and 1992. That defeuses the HOT FLASH theory for those two players, I believe and I don't think we've had enough time to determine if MM just went through a great Flash or if he may be around for the long-term. I don't think we'll ever hear much more about Varkonyi in the future.
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#8
06-11-2004, 08:21 PM
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Re: Seed vs. MM vs. VArkonyi vs. MCEvoy
[ QUOTE ]
He does not appear to be all that knowledgeable on the math to me. [/ QUOTE ] based on what? what youve seeon on tv? lol
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#9
06-12-2004, 08:21 AM
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Re: Seed vs. MM vs. VArkonyi vs. MCEvoy
[ QUOTE ]
based on what? what youve seeon on tv? lol [/ QUOTE ] No. Based on the several reports made by longtime knowledgeable posters here regarding their encounters playing live against him. Most notably, some Foxwoods reports indicated he plays more by the gut than the math. Thanks for "lol;" I'm sure it makes you feel special.
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#10
06-12-2004, 01:48 PM
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Re: Seed vs. MM vs. VArkonyi vs. MCEvoy
"I wouldn't be surprised if you're right, but if went into the WSOP without having read TOP/HPFAP/TPFAP, well that's akin to walking into a final exam having never seen the syllabus. "
Most of the big tourney winners haven't read any of those and what the hell good would it do you to read HPFAP since it's a NO LIMIT tourney? natedogg
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