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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 11:09 PM
JooWish622 JooWish622 is offline
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Default KQ...flop check okay?

Villian just sat down, nothing intersting so far except that he won a big pot with a big hand recently.
I am playing fairly loose but have shown down good hands
2-4 nl, 6 handed, hero is in CO, villian is in button.
Hero dealt KQ spades, raises to 16, Villian calls 16, both blinds fold.

Flop: QT8 3 diamonds. Hero checks, Villian bets 32, Hero calls.

Turn: 4 clubs. Hero bets 40, Villian raises to 210, Hero folds.

My question: Does this line save me money when I'm drawing dead on the flop and keep me from getting blown off my hand when I'm ahead of hands like (QJ, T9, A of diamonds).

Do you guys like this line to prevent myself from getting raised off my hand on the flop.

Benefits of this line: its hand defining merits on the turn+ getting money when I'm well ahead on the flop and he bluffs+ keeps him honest when a diamond hits because I check called.

Agree? thoughts? I find myself doing this when I have nothing else but high top pair, no draw, on a 3 flush board
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 11:15 PM
MrFeelNothin MrFeelNothin is offline
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Default Re: KQ...flop check okay?

It seems to me that the flop/turn combination is very weak and is in fact more likely to get you blown off your hand. When you come out with such a weak turn lead (less than half the pot) after check-calling the flop it would appear to him to be a good place to push you. What big hand are you going to play like this? I dont think there is one.

I would prefer just leading flop/turn and reevaluating on river or c/cing both streets and block betting the river.

If you are going to c/c the flop and bet the turn you have to bet more.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 11:22 PM
JooWish622 JooWish622 is offline
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Default Re: KQ...flop check okay?

I feel like against most mid-stakes players,

a stop and go will cause enough confusion to them that they'll call with a very wide range of hands here, ones that are well ahead and well behind. Clearly, they'll still push flushes but I've always felt betting half the pot on the turn as a stop and go is adaquate enough to cause them to slowdown without the best of hands.

Given that, I feel like betting that flop causes a lot of hands that I'm ahead of to push me off (a of diamonds, T9, QJ). I feel like flop checking gains me value from hands that are behind and allows me to get to the turn cheaply against hands like QJ and A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. If a bad card comes off here, I can check and be confident that my flop check-call should keep them from betting hands that I have beat. (if i bet and then checked to this bad card, they may bet with a hand like black jacks, realizing thats their time to move me off black kings and aces).

If a good card comes, my halfpot turn lead should let them to just call with hands like a red AA which would have likely raised me if I bet the flop. Although being against red AA would suck, i do get an extra card to hit here and possibly a free showdown as I've possibly represented a hand like two pair (since my line is confusing).

This just seems like a time to inflate my hand/gain value from way behind hands by checking the flop) by stopping and going this big board. It also adaquately defines my hand by the turn so I don't have to go to the river with a hand that won't improve and may be dead on the flop.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: KQ...flop check okay?

if u can call 32 on that flop i think you would be better off betting the 32

when u check the flop thats the green light for him if he has a high dia

so bet the 32 on flop instead of check call and if u get reraise u can fold

if he calls then i would check the turn unless i thought he was on draw
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  #5  
Old 12-30-2005, 01:44 AM
JooWish622 JooWish622 is offline
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Default Re: KQ...flop check okay?

[ QUOTE ]
if u can call 32 on that flop i think you would be better off betting the 32

when u check the flop thats the green light for him if he has a high dia

so bet the 32 on flop instead of check call and if u get reraise u can fold

if he calls then i would check the turn unless i thought he was on draw

[/ QUOTE ]



sigh...
this is like the antithesis of correct.
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  #6  
Old 12-30-2005, 01:50 AM
soah soah is offline
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Default Re: KQ...flop check okay?

Why did you post this hand? It obviously wasn't for feedback.
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  #7  
Old 12-30-2005, 02:08 AM
JooWish622 JooWish622 is offline
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Default Re: KQ...flop check okay?

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you post this hand? It obviously wasn't for feedback.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
My question: Does this line save me money when I'm drawing dead on the flop and keep me from getting blown off my hand when I'm ahead of hands like (QJ, T9, A of diamonds).

Do you guys like this line to prevent myself from getting raised off my hand on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a disadvantage to this line? It seems sound to be but I'm curious.

Im sorry for my arrogance but the above post was just so incorrect.


Thoughts? agree?
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  #8  
Old 12-30-2005, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: KQ...flop check okay?

if u can call 32 on that flop i think you would be better off betting the 32


so my post is incorrect?

if ur hand is good enough to call on the flop its good enough to bet on the flop

whats incorrect about that

joo?
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  #9  
Old 12-30-2005, 03:07 AM
FreakDaddy FreakDaddy is offline
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Default Re: KQ...flop check okay?

To answer your question, no. You showed strength before the flop, you hit the flop, all be it not the exact flop you'd like [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], but you're oop and I think a flop lead is better here. I don't mind a flop check/call that much, with the intention of leading the turn, BUT you need to make the bet a little stronger. I think you pretty much know that though, so I guess I'd have to ask what you thought you'd accomplish by taking this line and not expecting to get bluffed off the hand? The flop and turn look really weak, and I'd raise if I were villian no matter what I had.
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  #10  
Old 12-31-2005, 02:33 AM
JooWish622 JooWish622 is offline
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Default Re: KQ...flop check okay?

A. I avoid a flop raise, thus keeping the pot small until the turn, i conceal my hand by check-calling (not really conceal, but i overepresent it, i suggest that a draw card may help me which is important since there are a lot of turn cards that complete draws), and I keep some of his made hands honest (like black jacks and T9) honest on the turn when I check again (because of a bad turn card) since I check-called. If i check again on the turn because of an ugly card, they will be less likely to bluff because of an ugly card. If I bet the turn because of a safe card, my stop and go may suggest a flush (it is confusing, not necessarily, but they'll find less reason to inflate the pot with say a red AK with only one card to come)..

basically it keeps the pot small, keeps em honest, and overrepresents my hand on a lot of turn cards. peace

do you agree?

wouldnt you hate to be raised by AK of diamonds with a black KQ on this board? you can't possibly call comfortably and all you've done is let them inflate the pot with a hand you often can't call a turn bet with. Thats why calling 32 here is better then actually betting 32, betting 32 doesnt end the action. But, you would rather have them bet once, check-call, and then bet the turn on a safe turn?

sorry for the stream of consciousness reply
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