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  #21  
Old 12-26-2005, 03:15 AM
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Default Re: aa vs set

nice post murphy's law, thanks
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  #22  
Old 12-26-2005, 03:26 AM
Fallen Hero Fallen Hero is offline
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Default Re: aa vs set

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to put myself in the opponent's place. Limp 5 handed with an 8-7 of spades? J-10? UTG?

Well, it's possible. Call $5 more to me? How drunk/frustrated am I?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can limp 87s or JTs and call a raise in position with it prefectly sober

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand this makes more sense if I hold a pair. What the hell; you could have A-K or A-garbage

Now on the flop, when you raise $12 and I go over the top and double your raise, I've either put you on a bluff (unlikely) am drawing to a flush and feeling very lucky

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't need to feel lucky to raise a flush draw here

[ QUOTE ]
or--most likely I've either

a. Hit a set on the flop.

b. Think my pair of 10's J's Q's or K's has you beat with that ragged flop

So either go all-in or fold after 'my' reraise on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that simple and those are not hero's only options. If he 3bets here he folds all pp's and most hands he beats unless villain has a big draw, in wich case hero isn't much better than at a coin flip. Pushing and getting called here has you waaaaaay behind or slightly ahead.
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  #23  
Old 12-26-2005, 03:27 AM
xorbie xorbie is offline
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Default Re: aa vs set

[ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to put myself in the opponent's place. Limp 5 handed with an 8-7 of spades? J-10? UTG?


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't try to put yourself in your opponent's place. People limp 87 and JT UTG all the time, and they limp far worse.
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  #24  
Old 12-26-2005, 03:50 AM
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Default Re: aa vs set

[ QUOTE ]
It's not that simple and those are not hero's only options. If he 3bets here he folds all pp's and most hands he beats unless villain has a big draw, in wich case hero isn't much better than at a coin flip. Pushing and getting called here has you waaaaaay behind or slightly ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is teh case, what line do you advocate if you smooth call? It seems like pushing is poor when you describe it thus.
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  #25  
Old 12-26-2005, 03:55 AM
Fallen Hero Fallen Hero is offline
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Default Re: aa vs set

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not that simple and those are not hero's only options. If he 3bets here he folds all pp's and most hands he beats unless villain has a big draw, in wich case hero isn't much better than at a coin flip. Pushing and getting called here has you waaaaaay behind or slightly ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is teh case, what line do you advocate if you smooth call? It seems like pushing is poor when you describe it thus.

[/ QUOTE ]


I believe pushing the flop is poor. That's why I asked Isura why he advocated pushing since I respect his opinions a lot, his answer didn't really change my point of view, so I maintain that check folding the turn is the better option. If the turn bricks, he checks behind and the river bricks too than I check call the river. But that's a lot of if's and bricks.
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  #26  
Old 12-26-2005, 03:56 AM
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Default Re: aa vs set

aggressive KK is not going to check turn
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  #27  
Old 12-26-2005, 04:06 AM
Fallen Hero Fallen Hero is offline
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Default Re: aa vs set

[ QUOTE ]
aggressive KK is not going to check turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone limps TT-KK utg 5 handed they limp-reraise
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  #28  
Old 12-26-2005, 04:12 AM
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Default Re: aa vs set

you are right, its too late need to go to bed and stop playing poker
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  #29  
Old 12-26-2005, 06:21 AM
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Default Re: aa vs set

Fallen Hero:

As to TT and KK who have limped in raising on the turn instead of checking it, quite so, but then so will anyone who has made a set--esp a small one and wants to protect it. So, I don't think you'll be getting more info this way.

Unless I'm missing something, " he has put you to the decision, not the other way around. "

And "way too many ifs"

Granted, you're right about limping and calling a small raise against 1 opponent with J-10s or 8-7s, UTG 'perfectly sober'.-- esp in a typical 5 handed game. It might even be a +ev play

IN FACT:

"I don't need to feel lucky to raise a flush draw here"

Which sucks against AA as far as a + EV play (er..35%, right?) is a GREAT move IF you're playing against a by-the- book aggressive/tight opponent who plays only few quality hands, raises AA on a ragged flop BUT then when he's re-raised forgets his aggression, and only remembers his tightnes.

Taking the risks of either going all-in and losing to a set or folding to a bluff is far bettter than going from tight/aggressive to weak/tight after the flop.

Needless to say, I could be absolutely wrong in my analysis. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #30  
Old 12-26-2005, 06:37 AM
Fallen Hero Fallen Hero is offline
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Default Re: aa vs set

DISCLAIMER: Sleep depravation may be screwing up this post.
[ QUOTE ]
Fallen Hero:

As to TT and KK who have limped in raising on the turn instead of checking it, quite so, but then so will anyone who has made a set--esp a small one and wants to protect it. So, I don't think you'll be getting more info this way.


[/ QUOTE ]

As I've said before I don't think TT-KK is on villain's hand range

[ QUOTE ]
Unless I'm missing something, " he has put you to the decision, not the other way around. "

And "way too many ifs"

Granted, you're right about limping and calling a small raise against 1 opponent with J-10s or 8-7s, UTG 'perfectly sober'.-- esp in a typical 5 handed game. It might even be a +ev play

IN FACT:

"I don't need to feel lucky to raise a flush draw here"

Which sucks against AA as far as a + EV play (er..35%, right?) is a GREAT move IF you're playing against a by-the- book aggressive/tight opponent who plays only few quality hands, raises AA on a ragged flop BUT then when he's re-raised forgets his aggression, and only remembers his tightnes.


[/ QUOTE ]

being oop sucks [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I know there's a lot we beat here that's why I said I don't like folding on the flop, but putting villain on a range of hands here I'd say he has: a set, a combo draw, a simple flush draw or a pair (if he's really bad). Of those I'd say generally he checks behind on the turn with a pair and a bad flush draw (aka what we beat) and bets the rest.
So what I'm basically saying is that by moving in on the flop he folds everything we beat and calls with everything that beats us (or has us 50/50), by calling and checking the turn you get a better idea what his hand is (at the cost of a free card, nothing you can do here).

About the whole "going from tight agressive to weak/tight": overpairs oop on big pots (specially with that kind of flop) are horrible, there's nothing weak/tight about it.

[ QUOTE ]
Taking the risks of either going all-in and losing to a set or folding to a bluff is far bettter than going from tight/aggressive to weak/tight after the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (and I rarely do something I consider weak tight, in fact I spend most of my time looking at hands I think I played to agressively [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])
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