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  #11  
Old 12-24-2005, 10:53 AM
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Default Re: Stud vs Hold Em (low content)

Here's my rant...I started out learning poker by playing $1/5 stud, and I still play $5/10 or $10/20. I also play hold em'. I do prefer stud though...

1. Let's be honest, stud is not hip/popular/TELEVISED !
No wonder why the average Joe/Jane wants to really play hold em'. They want to play what's hot. And now everybody wants to play NL, just like on TV! It just looks so easy, doesn't it ? Only two cards to worry about...

2. Also, (I'm 32 y/o BTW), the average age of most stud players at an average table is probably 55-60. Most guys/girls in their 20's/30's want to drink/cut-up and gambool. "Pops", is a retired guy who is killing time at the stud table every day for recreation, not really to make money. Needless to say the table atmosphere is not really fun. Hence the term, "rock garden", most raises are met by groans and folds. Sorry if I offend anyone but...stud is seen as an "old man's" game, none of my friends/co-workers will play stud. I'm kind of an eccentric, I guess.

3. Stud is a game about patience, & LIVE CARDS ! Most hold em' palyers who aren't that good would get creamed at a stud table with someone who had a clue. You can't play your AcKd10c when there are a K and 10 on the board already, and
three clubs. Also, stud is slower, fewer hands dealt per hour. If you fold your first three cards, you have to wait longer for the next hand to be dealt than in hold em'.

4. In 1994, I first started playing in AC. There are more stud games in AC than anywhere else by far. At that time the percentage of hold em' to stud games was about 30%-70%.
Now it's 90%-10%. In Vegas it's 99%-1%. Some Vegas casinos don't have stud at all. And if they do, it's the lousy $1/5 spread limit. Most stud players will agree this is the worst form of casino poker out there (Although there used to be $1/3 games in AC). I'll say that $2/4 hold em' is just as boring and unprofitable. But, casinos are under pressure to fill all of these tables/new rooms popping up, and the demand is for low limit/no-limit hold em'. They have to spread what will put fannies in the seats.

Again sorry for the rant, but let's pray stud doesn't disappear totally from casinos. It's a great game, let's not let it die !
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2005, 11:49 AM
SNOWBALL138 SNOWBALL138 is offline
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Default Re: Stud vs Hold Em (low content)

Chip Reese said if you can master stud than you can master any form of poker. Chip Reese > Johnny Moss.
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  #13  
Old 12-24-2005, 10:02 PM
OrianasDaad OrianasDaad is offline
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Default Re: Stud vs Hold Em (low content)

I believe that David Sklansky has stated on these forums that 7-Card-Stud is the most difficult form of poker to master.
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  #14  
Old 12-24-2005, 10:24 PM
MichaelOar MichaelOar is offline
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Default Re: Stud vs Hold Em (low content)

Really? I've beaten HE up to 20/40 online for a couple of years now. About a month ago, I just had to take a break from HE, so I've been playing Stud only. I'm just amazed at how much easier hand reading seems in to be in stud. In HE, often times a totally innocuous card comes off, and all of a sudden someone is jamming. In stud, I feel like I always know where I'm at, and that allows me to bet/raise on the end for value much more often than in HE.

Michael
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  #15  
Old 12-24-2005, 11:06 PM
Alex/Mugaaz Alex/Mugaaz is offline
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Default Re: Stud vs Hold Em (low content)

[ QUOTE ]
Really? I've beaten HE up to 20/40 online for a couple of years now. About a month ago, I just had to take a break from HE, so I've been playing Stud only. I'm just amazed at how much easier hand reading seems in to be in stud. In HE, often times a totally innocuous card comes off, and all of a sudden someone is jamming. In stud, I feel like I always know where I'm at, and that allows me to bet/raise on the end for value much more often than in HE.

Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

The players at this level usually always have decent hands or some fairly large draw that missed by 7th. Even with hand reading being more difficult in HE you can usually value bet against people more often since they go to the river lighter. It's tough to get a lot of action without being crushed in tight structured stud games. In holdem there is always some guy who will over defend his blind, call down with middle pair or too weak a kicker, etc. The only time I feel like I'm value betting some fish in stud is when some tight player completes with an obvious big pair in the whole then calls you down when it's obvious you must have an even bigger pair, but this situation comes up in HE often as well. Stud is a way better game when you're playing against really horrible players, but once people start getting better SH holdem is probably the way to go. If stud got more popular I think there could be some great SH stud games if they used a looser structure.
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  #16  
Old 12-26-2005, 02:12 AM
FeliciaLee FeliciaLee is offline
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Default Re: Stud vs Hold Em (My Theory)

Danny has said this for years. Moss, like Negreanu, was primarily a HE player.

I am certainly no expert, but I have a lot of theories, and most of them are correct. Just as a good Stud player doesn't equal a good HE player, a great theorist doesn't equal a great poker player.

Stud is the type of game that will teach patience. It will teach a certain type of memory consciousness and a good ability to read hands, as well as people skills. How many fights break out in a Stud game? Not many. No, I'm not talking about since the HE boom, either. I remember back when AC was almost all Stud, and still, the fights broke out at the HE tables.

As we progress, yes, reading hands at Stud is easier than reading hands at HE. Is it solely because of exposed cards? No, not solely, although that is a great benefit to us. We have progressed.

As the stakes get higher, the pots become important enough to buy jewelry or a car, psychology starts to figure into the game more. Sheer aggression, the willingness to make the third bluff is a factor. The advantages of a closed handed game are obvious. You will see a ton of middle/higher limit games of HE, but not many of Stud (I'm talking 100/200 and higher).

Then there is the highest echelon. And what is played? Rarely HE, the biggest mix is:

[ QUOTE ]
No-limit Deuce-to-Seven single draw
No-limit Hold’em
Pot-limit Omaha
No-Limit Ace-to-Five single draw

$4000-$8000 limit games:

Omaha Eight-or-Better
Seven-Stud High
Seven-Stud Eight-or-Better
Deuce-to-Seven Triple Draw
Limit Hold’em
and occasionally Razz


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is taken directly from Barry's website. And yes, he admits that Ted is one of the winners in the "big game." And third, Ted's best games are Stud games (Stud, Stud 8, Razz). If you think there is nothing to what I'm saying, then pity you.

Daniel is NOT one of the players, nor one of the winners in the big game. Do I see a coincidence? Yes.

Like Howard Lederer has asserted, " Specialize at your Peril ."

Amen.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

"Any game where there's more decisions to make is a more skillful game. If someone can master stud, then they can master any poker game."--Chip Reese

"Seven Card Stud is the most skillful game to play correctly."--Page 28, Sklansky on Poker

"Seven Card Stud is clearly the most difficult game."--Page 29, Sklansky on Poker
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  #17  
Old 12-26-2005, 03:21 AM
highlife highlife is offline
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Default Re: Stud vs Hold Em (low content)

I wonder what Ted Forrest, Phil Ivey and Chip Reese would have to stay about this?

I think I'd go with them instead of "the DN"
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  #18  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:26 AM
bygmesterf bygmesterf is offline
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Default Re: Stud vs Hold Em (low content)

[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing some hold 'em recently and doing quite well. I find these games to be easier. I think hand reading in hold 'em is much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah, I can't stand hold'em. How can you put people on hand? Hold'em (especially short handed) always seems like people running around with sharp knives in the dark hunting for a wumpus.

At least in stud you have the boards to go on, and in Omaha, it's quite easy to read hands since there should only be a few combinations in contention on any given flop.
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  #19  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:38 AM
bygmesterf bygmesterf is offline
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Default Re: Stud vs Hold Em (low content)

[ QUOTE ]

It's tough to get a lot of action without being crushed in tight structured stud games. In holdem there is always some guy who will over defend his blind, call down with middle pair or too weak a kicker, etc.


The only time I feel like I'm value betting some fish in stud is when some tight player completes with an obvious big pair in the whole then calls you down when it's obvious you must have an even bigger pair, but this situation comes up in HE often as well. Stud is a way better game when you're playing against really horrible players, but once people start getting better SH holdem is probably the way to go. If stud got more popular I think there could be some great SH stud games if they used a looser structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party Poker is, I think corrupting your thinking. Real stud games in casino's are loosly structured. Shorthanded stud is far better than short handed hold'em since you have more information to work with.

In hold'em you often have to sink into default mode because you have no clue what the other person has. In stud you usually have a clue and can make more intelligent decisions.

A pound pound pound player will be toast in short handed stud game. But he'll be a big winner in short handed hold'em games.
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  #20  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:55 AM
SA125 SA125 is offline
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Posts: 171
Default Re: Stud vs Hold Em (My Theory)

[ QUOTE ]
I remember back when AC was almost all Stud, and still, the fights broke out at the HE tables.

You will see a ton of middle/higher limit games of HE, but not many of Stud (I'm talking 100/200 and higher).

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as the Taj goes, both of these statements are wrong. The argueing and calling for the floor is done way more at the Stud games. That's my opinion. 90% of the time, the highest limit game being spread is always Stud. That's a fact.
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