running the OOPdeeOOP

[me454555]

I hate playing big cards out of position (oop) b/c when I miss, I feel so lost. My standard play when I have 2 overs to a nonthreating flop is to bet the flop, bet the turn, and check the river. If I get raised on the turn I can toss it pretty easily but it seems like a waste of a BB or so. Anyway, here's an example of what I'm talking about
Party Poker 3.00/6.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.00 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.00 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (6.00 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.00 BB.

As always, comments appreciated as well as any other thought you have about playing overcards OOP

[baronzeus]

a couple questions

1) do you think you would have called the river with A high? if so, i think you should call here.

2) do you think BB peels a lot on the flop? if so, your bet is fine, other wise just c/f turn

[me454555]

1) Usually I don't call the river w/A high

2) I was hoping to get him to fold an Ax that missed

This problem isn't just w/KQ, its w/any big overcards that miss. I usually bet the turn but I'm thinking that might be a mistake? Is your usual line to bet the flop and check fold the turn?

[New001]

I like betting the turn a lot more with something like AQ or AJ rather than K high, but I'll bet KQ here a lot of the time too. The flop is moderately drawy, so I can see calling the river here. I'll usually fold though.

I do call with A high though. Is it really that wrong to fold K high and call A high?

[mperich]

Your opponent is very rarely betting A high on the river, unless they are bad they will just try to show it down. Therefore your KQ is basically the same as an ace...this is especially true as you move up in limits and people start to think more (they realize that betting A hi in position on the river is almost always incorrect)

-Mike

[New001]

Awesome reasoning, I like it.

[me454555]

bump

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent is very rarely betting A high on the river, unless they are bad they will just try to show it down. Therefore your KQ is basically the same as an ace...this is especially true as you move up in limits and people start to think more (they realize that betting A hi in position on the river is almost always incorrect)


[/ QUOTE ]

If BB is good, then I think his line is good with a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Betting with Ax (bad kicker) on boards like this in position is often profitable, because you either sometimes fold an opponent's better ace or you set him up to pay off value bets later on with his missed A highs.

I do agree with the general principle that it's often wrong to bet A high in position. But in this case, betting an A with a weak kicker is a good bluff. (Also betting AK is a good value bet if the opponent calls with a lot of A highs.) Now if you have a read that the PFR is stubborn and won't fold A high on the river on this kind of board ever, then obviously you check behind and only value bet in this spot.

So while I think KQ is somewhat close to A high in value here, I do think it could be weaker to the point of changing the river action. The correct decision is so read depedent (would opponent call here with QJ and then bluff the river; would he "value bet" a weak ace; would he fold AJ if bet into again on the river...).

Out of bet/fold, check/call, and check/fold, I like check/fold best here absent a read. I'm not sure whether bet/fold or check/call is better here. The board is so non-scary that I don't think a villain is going to fold A high here, so betting only gets value if he will call with K high. At the same time, without a read, how likely is it that villain is bluffing on the river with a missed draw for check/call to be a profitable line, especially since if he "bluffs" (or value bets, or just bets for no real reason at all in his head at the time) with A high, we don't win.