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  #21  
Old 07-15-2005, 06:52 AM
kasey2004 kasey2004 is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
I check behind on the flop. I like this play a lot when you flop the nut flush draw, even headsup as the preflop raiser.


[/ QUOTE ]

U check the nut flush draw with 2 overs heads up here ? I dont think I have ever even thought of doing that in a situation like this.

I dont mind the push here.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Kasey [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
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  #22  
Old 07-15-2005, 09:18 AM
mlagoo mlagoo is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

i like this line. i've do it every now and again, but typically out of position -- maybe in MP with one left to act behind. i don't think i've done it last to act, but this is definitely good reasoning for it.

with any luck, your heart falls and he bets out on the turn.
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  #23  
Old 07-15-2005, 09:21 AM
durron597 durron597 is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
I check behind on the flop. I like this play a lot when you flop the nut flush draw, even headsup as the preflop raiser.


[/ QUOTE ]

I feel that my hand loses a lot of value when I see my free card here. If it's a heart, then an overpair has to worry whether I checked behind with a flush draw. If it's an ace or a king, then the guy with 1 pair figures he's almost certainly beat.

There is no card that I want to see that doesn't scare my opponent. Thus I like to bet the flop. Thoughts?
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  #24  
Old 07-15-2005, 09:40 AM
wiggs73 wiggs73 is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only person that thinks his most obvious hands are JJ and TT and he was min-raising me to see where I was at in the hand?

Villain folded but I never felt he had a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you are't the only one who thought this. In fact, I didn't say it, but I felt that this was a strong possibility as well because I quite simply didn't think a set, a straight, or overcards would have played the hand this way. In the example I layed out earlier, I was setting up the worst possible case scenario just to illustrate that with everything working against you, calling is still +EV. Since it is likely that everything won't work against you, calling is likely to be more +EV than in my example.

To Adanthar, fwiw, I think that pushing the flop is ok too, I just wouldn't do it. At party I would because you have less chips to take cards off, but with the larger stacks at stars, I think calling becomes a more reasonable option. I feel like it gives you a good chance to gain more chips while minimizing your losses should your hand not hit on the turn or river. At party (which is where I play btw), I'd likely be pushing this in a heartbeat because you have to gain chips quicker. But blinds are so small in the example, that I think you can easily let it go and be in good shape if nothing materializes. This is just a difference in style though and I don't think a call or a push would be bad by any stretch.
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  #25  
Old 07-15-2005, 10:39 AM
11t 11t is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

Also I throw out a continuation bet here almost 80% of the time regardless of the flop. I figured that checking behind would look suspicious, however I doubt anybody would have noticed.
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  #26  
Old 07-15-2005, 12:53 PM
tangfoot tangfoot is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
I check behind on the flop. I like this play a lot when you flop the nut flush draw, even headsup as the preflop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cloutier advocates this play.
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  #27  
Old 07-15-2005, 03:27 PM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check behind on the flop. I like this play a lot when you flop the nut flush draw, even headsup as the preflop raiser.


[/ QUOTE ]

I feel that my hand loses a lot of value when I see my free card here. If it's a heart, then an overpair has to worry whether I checked behind with a flush draw. If it's an ace or a king, then the guy with 1 pair figures he's almost certainly beat.

There is no card that I want to see that doesn't scare my opponent. Thus I like to bet the flop. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]


Your hand doesn't have as much value as you think, especially if all the money goes in on the flop. Getting a lot of money in on the flop is a bad scenario for this hand, despite the fact that you have the nut flush draw and two overcards and "might" be a small favorite.

I mean I just don't understand. You are worried that an overpair will be scared that a flush draw just hit? Are you really that desperate to get all your money in on the flop against an overpair? You shouldn't be. If your opponent has one pair, same story. Why in the world are you so excited to get all 1500 chips in as a small favorite? If your opponent has 88, you only win 52% of the time. Also you are an underdog to hands like Ac 7c.

How come everyone likes to avoid coinflips and now suddenly you are just dying to get your opponent to play with you on the flop. If they put a lot of money in there is very little chance you are much more than a coinflip.

In my opinion you are drastically overrating the strength of your hand here. I'm HAPPY if by checking I scare my opponent off whatever hand they had or I get a free card that maybe allows me to win a small pot instead of getting allin as a coinflip for a big one. Also note that by checking I am allowing myself to win a huge pot if my opponent happened to have a big hand on the flop, yet I can't lose one. So many reasons why I like to check here...

Also if a blank falls, Im much happier bluffing on the turn than the flop, as your hand has lost some of it's value (although generally I'd check behind the turn too).
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  #28  
Old 07-15-2005, 03:37 PM
45suited 45suited is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

[ QUOTE ]
Your hand doesn't have as much value as you think, especially if all the money goes in on the flop. Getting a lot of money in on the flop is a bad scenario for this hand, despite the fact that you have the nut flush draw and two overcards and "might" be a small favorite.

I mean I just don't understand. You are worried that an overpair will be scared that a flush draw just hit? Are you really that desperate to get all your money in on the flop against an overpair? You shouldn't be. If your opponent has one pair, same story. Why in the world are you so excited to get all 1500 chips in as a small favorite? If your opponent has 88, you only win 52% of the time. Also you are an underdog to hands like Ac 7c.

How come everyone likes to avoid coinflips and now suddenly you are just dying to get your opponent to play with you on the flop. If they put a lot of money in there is very little chance you are much more than a coinflip.

In my opinion you are drastically overrating the strength of your hand here. I'm HAPPY if by checking I scare my opponent off whatever hand they had or I get a free card that maybe allows me to win a small pot instead of getting allin as a coinflip for a big one. Also note that by checking I am allowing myself to win a huge pot if my opponent happened to have a big hand on the flop, yet I can't lose one. So many reasons why I like to check here...

Also if a blank falls, Im much happier bluffing on the turn than the flop, as your hand has lost some of it's value (although generally I'd check behind the turn too)

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant post. I'd pay to belong to this forum for stuff like this. I couldn't agree more, although I wouldn't have been able to explain it anywhere near like that.

(I'm not a big fan of the continuation bet with AK in general, so this post really makes sense to me.)
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  #29  
Old 07-15-2005, 03:47 PM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

Thanks happy you liked it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It all stems from an idea called "Don't bet yourself off the nut flush draw" (applies when the stacks aren't shallow)

Of course there are exceptions, and this is a special one since you probably can give action if you get some on the flop, but it's a good rule of thumb.

Limit players are used to betting the flop after 3 opponents check when they have the nut flush draw. However in No Limit it's often a key strategic mistake.

Anyway the idea doesn't apply specifically to this situation, but enough so that I favor checking behind.


"btw the idea could also be demonstrated by "Dont turn your hand into 72o" a concept Sklansky talks about in some of his books."

For instance if you are on the button and have A7h against 2 callers with deep stacks. The flop comes like J54 with 2 hearts and they check to you, if you now bet and someone makes a huge pot committing raise, you might have to throw away your hand, and you have thus turned a hand with huge future value into 72o."
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  #30  
Old 07-15-2005, 03:49 PM
durron597 durron597 is offline
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Default Re: AK flop play

I'm not looking to call allin here with my overcards and flush draw, I'm looking to bet right here and win the pot, and if I do get called I'm still likely the favorite. If the pot is small enough where a push doesn't make sense, so I bet less and they call then they will likely check to me on the turn and I can see the river for free. However if I check behind they will bet the turn which is basically the same amount of chips except I lose the fold equity from not betting the flop.

The real problem is that if I check behind and miss and they bet the pot, now I don't have odds to see the river because I won't get paid off if I hit, and my A high might actually be good and if it isn't I am no closer to knowing if my outs are clean.

If I bet the flop, it's not actually a bluff - I am value betting what will more often than not be the best hand by the river. If the turn and river are blanks, I am giving my opponent a chance to fold his 1 pair hand gaining me a small pot instead of giving him the small pot.
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