Silly?

[Toro]

I got scorched for my play in this hand. The railbird called my play silly and he continued on after I got eliminated. I didn't respond because I agreed with him, but I sent the HH to my buddy and he didn't see anything wrong with my play.

It was a cheap $5.50 + rebuys NLHE tourney and I had $16.50 invested, not that that matters. We were about 60 places away from the money which wasn't significant.

Thinking it over, maybe my buddy is right. Suppose I only raise 4x the BB and get re-raised, do I get away from JJ. Don't know, probably not. Probably a weakness in my game, but I'm not good at laying down big pairs preflop.

I had made a similar play earlier with QQ the orbit before and thought I might get someone to call with an underpair.

PokerStars Game #1674394124: Tournament #7715076, Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (600/1200) - 2005/05/10 - 21:19:16 (ET)
Table '7715076 13' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: infamous8cm (21446 in chips)
Seat 2: Toro85 (39304 in chips)
Seat 3: KansasJimmie (8948 in chips)
Seat 4: chansmaster (14187 in chips)
Seat 5: GOUPHI (25917 in chips)
Seat 6: hankdawson (39925 in chips)
Seat 7: sickdickey (52523 in chips)
Seat 9: jrstout (14654 in chips)
infamous8cm: posts the ante 75
Toro85: posts the ante 75
KansasJimmie: posts the ante 75
chansmaster: posts the ante 75
GOUPHI: posts the ante 75
hankdawson: posts the ante 75
sickdickey: posts the ante 75
jrstout: posts the ante 75
GOUPHI: posts small blind 600
hankdawson: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Toro85 [Jh Jd]
sickdickey: folds
jrstout: folds
infamous8cm: folds
Toro85: raises 38029 to 39229 and is all-in
KansasJimmie: folds
chansmaster: folds
GOUPHI: folds
baby_mary is connected
hankdawson: calls 38029
*** FLOP *** [8c 4c 3c]
*** TURN *** [8c 4c 3c] [3d]
*** RIVER *** [8c 4c 3c 3d] [8d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hankdawson: shows [Ad Ac] (two pair, Aces and Eights)
Toro85: shows [Jh Jd] (two pair, Jacks and Eights)
infamous8cm said, "silly"
sickdickey said, "gg"
hankdawson collected 79658 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 79658 | Rake 0
Board [8c 4c 3c 3d 8d]
Seat 1: infamous8cm folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Toro85 showed [Jh Jd] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Eights
Seat 3: KansasJimmie folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: chansmaster (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: GOUPHI (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: hankdawson (big blind) showed [Ad Ac] and won (79658) with two pair, Aces and Eights
Seat 7: sickdickey folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: jrstout folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Sluss]

If you can't laydown JJ to a push re-raise than open pushing might be the best line for you.

However, if you raised 3x BB and got cold called you would have layed down on the flop right? I don't know if the guy would have called here or re-raised, but if he did just call you could have got away post-flop.

[Prime Time]

I would not have pushed when you did, not that I would not have some time in the hand.

If you had 10BB or less, it's a diff. story.
But you know this.

If you are dominated, you have no escapes.
If he lets you see a flop, and get an unfavorable one, you can get away from the hand and live another day.

[nsj]

The only hands that call your overpush are QQ, KK, AA, and maybe AK.

So yes, I think it's silly.

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
However, if you raised 3x BB and got cold called you would have layed down on the flop right? I don't know if the guy would have called here or re-raised, but if he did just call you could have got away post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't see myself getting away from the hand post flop with the flop that occurred. Now if an overcard or cards had flopped, then I could have.

This is still not an excuse for the way I played the hand preflop. Upon reflection, I know why I played it this way and it was that I was afraid to play the hand properly for fear of getting outplayed either pre or post flop. That's not good Poker.

[Lurshy]

[ QUOTE ]
The only hands that call your overpush are QQ, KK, AA, and maybe AK.

So yes, I think it's silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Short stacks with an underpair, two broadway, or suited Ax will call as well. It is still a line I don't care for though.

[fnord_too]

I really don't like open pushing when you have 30BB. I like it a little more if it is folded to you in late position and you think someone may think you are on some crazy steal, but not much more. We can figure your EV if you assume a range of hands that will call you. I do not think pushing is +EV there, but I have not done the math, so that is just speclation.

I just looked at the stack sizes of everyone, and that makes me like it even less. The thing about getting reraised if you make a raise is that you know who you will be up against. If a bigger stack pushes, you may find a fold. Moreover I am not convinced underpairs are going to call here. I really think you only get action from hands that are way ahead and AK. In the raise/reraise/(push if you have the option) scenario, (assuming you never get away from the hand), I think you have a better chance of getting action when you are way ahead. (Again, I have not done any math here, but that is my intuitive response).

[Roman]

If I didn't know it was you, I would think you were playing scared. Dont be afriad of getting outplayed, you should be one of the best postflop players on your table and should want to see a flop here.

[John W]

Your only going to get called by a better hand. You know that though. Seems pretty silly to me.

rambis

[grandgnu]

Pre-flop there's 2,400 chips in the pot, and you're WAY overbetting when you don't need to do so. You have 39,304 in chips, which is 32.75 times the BB of 1200.

If you raise 2.5x the BB and get re-raised, then you've got a chance to lay it down. If you see the flop, you still might get all of your money in, putting your opponent on a steal attempt, or you may get away from the hand and make the laydown.

Either way, the pre-flop push I don't like at all, way too risky and without much merit. C'mon Toro, you're a better player than that!