$109 tourney, T5s hand

[PrayingMantis]

Thanks MLG. I like it, and I certainly think that my bottom 2p in this spot and board is a hand which is not making me too much money the way I played it. Actually - it makes more sense to play the way I did with complete nothing, than with bottom 2p.

I think that the fact that I'm against a reasonable big stack, which will probably not call all-in here with hands I beat, but might try to take it down if I check behind on the flop with many hands that I beat, could be a good reason to keep this pot relatively small, and not commit to it too early. Surely I might find myself later on in this hand facing some tough decisions (if straight cards fall, for instance), but still it might be better EV than how I've played it.

Recently I find myself too many times making strong moves with very nice hands but not great ones, only to get called by better hands, heald by tough opponents who won't call anyway with worse hands, most of the time. It's something to work on. Playing a bit more "passively" with these nice but 2nd rate hands.

[MLG]

yes the way ahead/way behind concept. Its important. learn it, live it, love it.

[lucas9000]

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i'd expect to be shown something like jt or a set of 5s or 10s too often in this situation.

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Thanks for the toughts. But I just want to make sure that you do realize that there is only 1 possible combination for 55, and 1 for TT (for my opp to hold)? So obviously you won't be seeing these hands often here.

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i should have been more clear before. what i meant to say was that if the big stack is willing to commit all his chips here (or close enough against you, the second-largest stack), he's most often doing it with jt here, and also 55 and tt. i didn't mean those are the hands he'll usually have in absolute terms, but those are the hands i'd expect him to be check-raising the second-largest stack with.

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I do agree that JT is a hand I am more worried about (6 combinations), obviously. And I do put him in a tough spot if he has TPTK and even TP2ndK, although in this case pushing against him is probably not optimal, as I don't give him a chance to feel more comfortable about his hand. However, only calling his check-raise is dangarous with only a vulnerable bottom 2p.

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i agree that calling is pretty bad, unless you're willing to put the rest in. i think i'd grit my teeth and fold to the check-raise here.

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Anyway, you don't give any other line of playing post-flop. I'm interested to see how you would have played it (and I gave my reasons for the "smallish" PF raise in another post in this thread).

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ok, leaving aside the preflop issue, i'd have played it the same way you did, except i would have likely folded to the check-raise. imo smooth-calling the check-raise is not even an option. it's all-in or fold time there.

[MLG]

Folding to the c-raise here is very bad in my opinion. You will be laying down the best hand far more often that you will be beaten.

[lucas9000]

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Folding to the c-raise here is very bad in my opinion. You will be laying down the best hand far more often that you will be beaten.

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when you get check-raised here, what hand do you put check-raiser on?

[MLG]

any J, some 10s a straight draw of a pure bluff. Keep in mind the situation. The BB has just defended from a late position raise. The raiser is very likely going to follow through on the flop whether or not he has a hand. The big blind has more than enough chips to c-raise and fold to a push. If BB has less chips this move indicates a lot more strength.

[lucas9000]

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any J, some 10s a straight draw of a pure bluff. Keep in mind the situation. The BB has just defended from a late position raise. The raiser is very likely going to follow through on the flop whether or not he has a hand. The big blind has more than enough chips to c-raise and fold to a push. If BB has less chips this move indicates a lot more strength.

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good point. with that in mind, pushing the flop would likely have been my move as well after the check-raise. nevertheless, after what you said here, your other post about checking behind on the flop looks even better.

[remen]

I haven't read the other replies yet, but here is my opinion. Your flop play is fine. The BB could easily have put you on a steal and called with the plan of making a play on the flop. Also he could have called your preflop raise with something like QJ-AJ and played the flop that way.

Your main mistake in this hand is the preflop raise. The first problem I have with it is the shortstacks in the button and SB. If either comes over the top you probably have to call getting close to 2-1 on the call. Secondly, at this point in the tourney you want to be stealing from the tight mid-stacked players not from the only player at the table who can bust you.

[remen]

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How about checking behind on the flop. I like that for several reasons. If you bet the flop he folds stuff he misses, and he plays back with top pair or a hand that beats you. If you check behind many times he will bet out the turn no matter what hits in order to try and take it down. I would then call the turn and either call or value bet the river. In this way you get the most out of him when he has nothing and lose the least when you're crushed. The only times you might let him off is when he flops a J and the turn and or river are action killing cards. The other nice thing about this game is metagame considerations. If you check behind on the flop sometimes with good hands, you will discourage opponents from betting the turn when you check behind the flop with nothing. This situation can be very profitable because now you can check behind on the flop when your blind steals miss to avoid a possible c-raise. Then your opponent will be more likely to check the turn to you if he hasn't hit and you will be able to pick it up with even less risk.


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I have some problems with this line in this hand. My main problem here is your hand badly needs to be protected. I don't think bottom two pair is strong enough to slow play on the flop. There are many hands with which he could have called the preflop raise and checked the flop that have a lot of outs on this flop (J9s, QJ, KJ, AJ, KQ, 89s, low pocket pairs, etc). If you check behind and he hits an out (besides another jack hitting the board) with one of these hands you could end up losing all of your chips.

Another thing to keep in mind for metagame considerations is that the table will see that if your steal attempts hit the flop hard you will slow play it. Therefore your opponents will be more likely to check-raise bluff you on the flop or call you down with a weaker hand if you bet once checked to after raising preflop from a stealing position. You will have more trouble winning future pots when firing the second bullet after a steal attempt preflop.

Another problem I have with checking to let the BB bluff the turn is the OP stated this player in particular is not very aggressive. Also, I think the BB will check-raise bluff close to as often as he would bluff the turn had you checked behind.

Following this line can put you in a lot of bad situations with potentially tough decision for all of your chips. One example is a blank hits the turn and the BB bets. Then a J hits the river and the BB makes a large bet. Another example is the same betting from the previous example with two cards higher than J hitting the turn and river. A lot of scare cards for your hand can hit the turn and river putting you in a bad spot.

[MLG]

I agree that many times a scare card can come. I'm not worried about giving J9, KJ, or QJ a free card here, they are drawing to 5 outs (maybe a little better with backdoor straight, but still). Obviously the two hands you are worried about are KQ and 89. With position I'm willing to risk it and trust that I will make the tougher decisions as im confronted with them later in the hand. I prefer to make those decisions than let my opponent off when he has nothing, and lose when he flops huge. There is no easy solution in this hand though, and I don't think the way our hero played it was bad, im simply offering an alternative equally viable line.