Laying AK Down Preflop - Page 3

bdohaney · #21 08-10-2005, 11:38 PM

I think I agree with the fold here. I disagree about it being just a coin-toss. Yes, it is a coin toss if they have any pair OTHER than AA or KK. Here, they very well could have either with a bet that size. They have already seen you raise, showing your intent to play the hand, or at least see a flop, and they make a healthy raise, hoping you will call. While he could have AK as well, or AQ, (and with it being an online tourney, AJ, AT and KQ aren't impossible holdings) the likelihood is that he probably does have a pair. Any pair he holds other than AA or KK you are a slight underdog. I just don't see it being worth it here, still having an M of 36.

dark_horse · #22 08-11-2005, 01:43 AM

fwiw, i asksed villian later in the tourney what he had and he said he had pocket tens. if we knew he had tens, and we had no read on the kind of player he is, how do we proceed?

Dave D · #23 08-11-2005, 01:56 AM

You have to call 1050 to win 1750. That's 60% of the pot, but your odds of winning are roughly 43%. At this point you also start considering your original logic, do I need to start getting into big hands with my stack. The answer by default is a no. I think the only thing that would make me call here is if i thought I had the implied odds (I could get him to pay me off if a A/K flopped or whatever). Or if I have super confidence in my post flop skillz.

If you somehow magically knew he had 10s, it's a fold for me. Maybe some players would call. I think pushing is no longer an option because most people will not lay down tens in this situation.

Howard Treesong · #24 08-11-2005, 03:10 AM

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If you somehow magically knew he had 10s, it's a fold for me. Maybe some players would call. I think pushing is no longer an option because most people will not lay down tens in this situation.

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If you magically knew he had tens, it's a mandatory call. You're getting 2:1 or so to flop an A or K, so that's close to par EV, but your absolute knowledge of his hand takes all the uncertainty out of your implied odds AND your reverse implied odds. With those factors operating in your favor, it's gotta be an easy call.

cortjstr · #25 08-12-2005, 01:01 AM

As i mentioned in my second post, he looked like he was trying to protect a slightly less than premium pair. So we had a good read on him and we have to call because we are getting much better pot odds and with a pair we are probably getting implied odds. Either way you must call this !!!

#26 08-12-2005, 03:52 AM

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Forgive a dumb newbie qustion, but here goes. Assuming that the pot odds are in your favor but you don't like even remote 'coin flips ' early on, how do you win the tournament?

Just got through reading Sexton's book when he talks about how Ungar did next to nothing in the early rounds and then when the antes hit, he would rob like crazy. How P. Helmuth follows a similar style and how neither liked to get involved in big pots until they amassed chips by ante and blind stealing. Now if I understand the original poster correctly, he appears to follow this way, as well, cosequently justifying his AK fold as a good one.

Fair enough. But to be specific HOW DO YOU WIN THE ANTES WITHOUT A BIGGER STACK? You've established yourself as supertight (hell, show them the AK as you lay it down! ) but--besides having an almot telepathic read on the opponents--what wll enable you to switch gears and get aggresive when the antes come into play? Isn't the implication that you will have amassed chips in the meantime by playing supertight? At least that's what it sounds like. BuT HOW?
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Play only Sklansky's group one hands and if substatially raised pre-flop, fold?? Fold even if the pot odds after the flop are laying you good to great odds? Could someone help this newbie ignoramus with this one?
THX in advance. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

#27 08-12-2005, 04:19 AM

Just to chime in, I wouldn't have layed this down.. my logic is, if he had aces or kings, would he not want action from you instead of make a big re-raise? To me, the re-raise indicates he doesn't want to get called because he doesn't want to be in a coin-flip.. on the other hand, people (some) don't push their KK/AA as much pre-flop (against one player) as they would 99/10-10/JJ because they know that it may be the best hand now, but probably not after the flop.

dark_horse · #28 08-12-2005, 12:42 PM

hey marwan, nice job in last season's 24. sorry your son killed you.

kuro · #29 08-12-2005, 01:19 PM

I don't like folding here at all. Villain is not pot committed by his raise. It's very unlikely that he has aces or kings. So push over the top of him and watch him fold most of the time and you scoop a nice sized pot.

Komodo · #30 08-12-2005, 01:29 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
This is a push or fold - calling is terrible - because a decent player is not generally doing that with AQ and even if he is you will be blown off any flop you both miss.

I don't mind either of those. (Of course, this assumes he's decent.)

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I like your analyses. Agree 100%. Lets say he got a medium pair. You miss the flop 70% of the time and he takes the pot. Difficult to say push or fold without any read.