a hand i disliked-QQ BB

thejameser · #1 12-01-2005, 05:53 PM

party 2/4.

at work so i have no hand history, but i was new to this table so i had no reads.

2 limps to CO who raises, button cold calls, sb folds, i 3 bet Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] from the BB. all call.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, intending to raise CO's bet(99% of the time i lead out here, i don't know what came over me; first street of the hand i hate). MP bets(damn), 3 calls to me so i change my plan and only call(anyone still like a raise?).

Turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet, MP raises, CO calls, I call because i cannot fold to a cap.

River: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, MP bets, CO calls, I overcall.

Please, I deserve it. Don't hold back. I hate alot about this hand. What do you hate? I would love to know.

BIGRED · #2 12-01-2005, 06:05 PM

I would bet out, hoping to start a raise fest that will drive out or charge a high price for any diamonds and straight draws.

You wanted to CR the flop but you had too many callers so you just called hoping for a safe turn, but when the K hit the turn, you bet out, which is not consistent with your plan when you didn't raised the flop. You betting out on the turn is what I hate the most about the way you played it.

I call the river, but what are the chances that a J isn't out there?

silly_monkey · #3 12-01-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I check, intending to raise CO's bet(99% of the time i lead out here, i don't know what came over me; first street of the hand i hate). MP bets(damn), 3 calls to me so i change my plan and only call(anyone still like a raise?).

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I'm pretty new to these forums, so if anything I say here is wrong please tell me why and don't flame me... also take this advice with a grain of salt from a n00b trying to get better.

*grunch*

Why not raise? Your equity here is huge. There is obviously the possibility of a made flush or made straight here, and certainly straight and flush draws, but you have the best hand right now more often than not. Also, you have 7 outs to fill up on the turn, and 10 outs to fill up on the river. You can expect to win this pot more than 1 time 5 so go ahead and raise for value.

Why would you lead out on the turn? I think you a behind now for sure. Your bet looks like either a made flush or straight. Neither MP or CO seems particularly frightended here. Also, MP's raise will likely blow away the rest of the field. Why make things more expensive for your now drawing hand? I would C/C and hope to pick up as many people as possible.

I think the river is a tough call. MP has shown agression from the flop. CO cold called the turn and called on the river. I think you are hooped here. That being said you _might_ call because of the giant pot. CO calling before you complicates things though. I'd like to say that I would fold here, but I'm not sure I could.

W. Deranged · #4 12-01-2005, 06:28 PM

Bet the flop for value. Once it's bet in middle position, you should still go through with your check-raise for value purposes, in my opinion. The board is so draw heavy you're going to have a hard time protecting anyway, so why not get as much money in now when you can be pretty confident you've got an equity edge.

silly_monkey · #5 12-01-2005, 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet out, hoping to start a raise fest that will drive out or charge a high price for any diamonds and straight draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't charge the flush/straight draws here. Well maybe the gutshot draws, but OESD and especially flush draws should be happy to get it capped here five handed. You want to jam the pot, but not to charge the draws. You can't make a flush draw fold here, and you can't make it wrong for him to call. You should however want to jam the pot because you have more than your share of equity.

Edited: well OK, the straight draws don't feel good if this is capped.

#6 12-01-2005, 06:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I check, intending to raise CO's bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was your mistake. You don't really have a reason to expect the CO to bet. You 3-bet preflop, and this is a scary board. It would also be terrible to give a free card here. You gotta bet this.

W. Deranged · #7 12-01-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check, intending to raise CO's bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was your mistake. You don't really have a reason to expect the CO to bet. You 3-bet preflop, and this is a scary board. It would also be terrible to give a free card here. You gotta bet this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

It is very important to realize that the combination of factors:

1. You three-bet pre-flop and didn't get capped.
2. The board is about as scary with draws as possible.

Means that it's very, very difficult to assume that a bet is coming from any one specific place.

Since you can't assume that you'll be able to manipulate the pot by raising a specific bettor, and because the board is crazy and you'll get action, and because you have a big hand, just bet.

QTip · #8 12-01-2005, 06:57 PM

I didn't know you knew how to start a thread anymore. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Steelers suck.

Anyway. I don't think this is all that bad outside of not throwing in chips on the flop with both hands.

The overcall on the river stings, and you're probably not good often enough...but...you know...

MattiasL · #9 12-01-2005, 07:36 PM

Ok, here's my $0.02

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, intending to raise CO's bet(99% of the time i lead out here, i don't know what came over me; first street of the hand i hate).

[/ QUOTE ]
Bet. Your hand is strong, and giving a free card would be horrendous.

[ QUOTE ]

MP bets(damn), 3 calls to me so i change my plan and only call(anyone still like a raise?).

[/ QUOTE ]
Raise. You have very little fold equity, but you may still be ahead. And when you are behind, raising on your boat draw has good value with this many opponents.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I bet, MP raises, CO calls, I call because i cannot fold to a cap.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt bet. You have no fold equity against any flush draws and you are almost certainly behind to at least a straight already. Also - the flop aggressor is on your left and may raise out a number of opponents. I would keep people in to get good value for the boat draw. Admittedly, if noone has a flush or straight yet this is a large mistake, but I think the chance of that is very small. With up to ten boat outs there is no way whatsoever that you can fold on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]

River: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I check, MP bets, CO calls, I overcall.

[/ QUOTE ]
You probably have the third best hand. But I would have a hard time folding this huge pot against unknown 2/4 players.

[ QUOTE ]

Please, I deserve it. Don't hold back. I hate alot about this hand. What do you hate? I would love to know.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really only hate the flop check/call.

ZenMusician · #10 12-01-2005, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since you can't assume that you'll be able to manipulate the pot by raising a specific bettor, and because the board is crazy and you'll get action, and because you have a big hand, just bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to contradict the "When the pot gets very large" section of
SSHE...care to elaborate your reason to "jam it anyway"?

-ZEN