Too weak?

12ozLongneck · #1 06-08-2004, 01:54 AM

Should I have been more aggressive with this hand? From what I had seen so far, all of the players that stuck around for the flop had pretty low standards for what they'd play and I was fairly sure that any pocket pair that had my 10s beat would have put in a third bet.

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button raises, Hero craps pants, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10.20 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (15.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 19.20 BB

Results in white below: 
Button shows 2s Ks (two pair, kings and twos).
BB shows 8s Kc (two pair, kings and eights).
Hero shows Ts Tc (three of a kind, tens).
MP2 shows Jd Js (one pair, jacks). OK, so I was wrong about a higher pair putting in a third bet...
Outcome: Hero wins 19.20 BB. 

I was worried about kings or queens in the hole, but I figured that the pot size merited calling it down at the very least. Your thoughts?

MCS · #2 06-08-2004, 02:09 AM

Why would you not raise again at some point? There is almost no chance you're behind. What made you think someone had kings or queens in the hole?

The flop raise should thrill you. Unless he has KK, you are way, way ahead. Given that he didn't three-bet preflop, there is almost no chance that he has KK. And even if he did three-bet preflop, you STILL shouldn't put him on the one hand that beats you. The way I see it is that if it's set over set, you're just screwed and there's not a lot you can do about it.

You have to play this as if it's the best hand. If you can't make money with a set on an uncoordinated board, what CAN you make money with?

Technically, there's a possible straight on the turn. Do not fear it either. After you get raised on the flop, I'd try to checkraise the turn if I thought there was a good chance the button would bet. (Of course, knowing me, I'd end up giving a free card instead and curse myself [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

In other words, I think you drastically undervalued your hand the whole way.

tech · #3 06-08-2004, 02:12 AM

I'm not even sure where to start. I hope you don't take offense to the comments you are going to get from me and everyone else -- we are just trying to help.

With that said, this is very very very bad. When you say you crapped your pants on the flop, I assume you mean it was because you were scared of button's hand. I too would have crapped my pants, but it would have been because I was so happy. This is a fantastic flop for you. The raise is great for you -- more people putting money into what is likely going to be your pot.

Instead of calling down, you should be betting and raising as much as you can. This type of hand is about as good as it gets in poker. If you continue to play this meekly, you are in for a lot of trouble. Keep posting hands. We will help. Good luck!

cold_cash · #4 06-08-2004, 02:18 AM

I hope you crapped your pants because you were so excited about being a huge favorite to win a whopper pot.

Bet/Raise/Re-raise with both hands here. The thought of being behind should hardly cross your mind, especially on the flop.

If by some miracle he does have KK, do the right thing and lose a ton of bets.

12ozLongneck · #5 06-08-2004, 02:26 AM

I'm not going to take offense to criticism, especially when it's deserved. I've recently developed the horrible habit of assuming the absolute worst with hands that I know are really stout and just need to shake it off.

illunious · #6 06-08-2004, 02:52 AM

Why didn't you checkraise after crapping your pants? Crapping your pants gave you the beautiful opportunity to pull the checkraise of the day.

bisonbison · #7 06-08-2004, 09:15 AM

I was worried about kings or queens in the hole, but I figured that the pot size merited calling it down at the very least. Your thoughts?

Okay, on the flop, you were obviously only worried about KK in the hole, cause you're hugely ahead of QQ. The the flop Q comes and you decide he might have QQ too? Or maybe AJ? And that's probably AJ of diamonds. And those diamonds are gonna come on the river and then the Button is gonna drive to your house and beat up your dad.

NO.

Think about the button. Maybe 5-10% of players would fail to 3-bet KK preflop in his shoes. The button, who is willing to raise flopped two pair against the preflop raiser, is probably not one of those people. And it's not just KK they'll raise there. Also AK, and AA. And then they'll raise the flop too. And you WANT to get into a raising war with them.

My line? bet, 3-bet flop. Lead turn.

chief444 · #8 06-08-2004, 09:37 AM

If you "crap your pants" because of one button raise, then I think you may be playing too weak in general and not just in this hand.

3-bet the flop, lead the turn and 3-bet if given the opportunity. You have a monster hand that is ahead on the flop somewhere in the neighborhood of 99% of the time here.