Pocket TT

mojobluesman · #1 12-22-2005, 01:34 PM

No read yet.

This kind of situation continues to perplex me.

When the J falls on the flop, if everyone checks to me I know to bet. If I am first to act, I usually bet (depending on how many opponenets etc..) to try to protect my delicate hand and find out where I am. However, when someone bets into me it's generally a raise or fold and I never know which way to go. With only 2 outs it feels like a fold, but against some of these players, it also feels weak.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 5 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (9.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, MP1 raises, Hero folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

tyler_cracker · #2 12-22-2005, 01:44 PM

This is tough without reads, but MP1 could be betting a draw or a smaller pocket pair. I agree that you should raise or fold, and raising is reasonable on the flop. Folding is ok too without a read.

I would take a free turn, though, especially after everyone called your flop raise. You can then think about calling to snap off a bluff on a safe river card.

Obviously, that river card is not safe. Good fold.

mojobluesman · #3 12-22-2005, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is tough without reads, but MP1 could be betting a draw or a smaller pocket pair. I agree that you should raise or fold, and raising is reasonable on the flop. Folding is ok too without a read.

I would take a free turn, though, especially after everyone called your flop raise. You can then think about calling to snap off a bluff on a safe river card.

Obviously, that river card is not safe. Good fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I have with taking a free card on the turn is that "if I am ahead" I am giving a free card to someone that might have folded to the bet. I'm not comfortable with that.

Fantam · #4 12-22-2005, 01:52 PM

Hi Mojo.

I like your general reasoning. When MP1 bet into you on that flop, I would also have raised. Thats because the flop is coordinated and your opponents could have been on either a straight or flush draw.

If the flop had not contained any obvious straight or flush draws, I would have been more inclined to fold when bet into by a straightforward playing opponent.

When the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the turn, completes both the flush draw and a possible straight draw, I would have checked behind and taken a free card. I doubt that either of your opponents bet/called the flop with a deuce or trey.

I think that by betting you risked being check raised on the turn by a better hand.

Fantam · #5 12-22-2005, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I have with taking a free card on the turn is that "if I am ahead" I am giving a free card to someone that might have folded to the bet. I'm not comfortable with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the trouble is that you were very unlikely to have the best hand after the dangerous turn card fell.

If a blank had fallen, then betting to protect your hand would have made sense.

Songwind · #6 12-22-2005, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I have with taking a free card on the turn is that "if I am ahead" I am giving a free card to someone that might have folded to the bet. I'm not comfortable with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

With a flush draw, 3 to the straight and one (popular) overcard, how often do you think you're ahead?

Eeegah · #7 12-22-2005, 02:04 PM

Why would taking a free card matter here? We're either ahead, a two outer or drawing dead. (edit: oh wait, da flush sorry--but a T high flush doesn't really make me feel comfy.)

And with only two opponents I ain't giving credit to the flush. That said, hahaha did you ever get [censored] by this board. Good fold, but you didn't need me to tell you that.

Edit: That said, I think betting the turn is dubious anyway. Why did MP1 bet the flop? He may have a weak jack, which beats us. It was also possible he was on a draw--but that turn completed every possible draw. The pot is still small, so I think checking intending to fold the river U/I is a good plan. Maybe this contradicts what I said earlier, I dunno [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

mojobluesman · #8 12-22-2005, 02:17 PM

I understand the thinking on the turn, but assuming there is any chance I am ahead, when I check the turn I am inviting a weaker pair to bet the river. Maybe that's not as applicable in this case. However, one of the things I really dislike about giving up the lead is that once you show weakness, the bets come at you in the next round and you have no idea where you are. Usually, I'd rather bet, keep some fold equity and have the option of checking on the river. Because if a bet comes on the river, I usually have to call anyway because I invited it by being weak on the turn.

tyler_cracker · #9 12-22-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if a bet comes on the river, I usually have to call anyway because I invited it by being weak on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is, in fact, one of the selling points of checking behind on the turn. This is inducing a bluff (or a bet from a weaker hand), which you intend to snap off by calling a river bet.

mojobluesman · #10 12-22-2005, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if a bet comes on the river, I usually have to call anyway because I invited it by being weak on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is, in fact, one of the selling points of checking behind on the turn. This is inducing a bluff (or a bet from a weaker hand), which you intend to snap off by calling a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying that giving up any small potential I have to get one or both opponents to fold on the turn by betting is worth waiting to the see the river. Because either way I get one bet in if I am ahead (and maybe 2 if the river is a T).