Oddly played T9s

Spicymoose · #1 11-22-2005, 11:42 AM

SB here is 25/8.3/2.2 after about 70. CO here is 42/4/2 after 50.

I think every street is debatable. I did get called a moron by SB after the hand though.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, MP calls, Hero raises, SB calls, MP calls.

River: (8 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

RunDownHouse · #2 11-22-2005, 11:45 AM

Iso raaaaaaaaaise.

I may call the turn, may fold depending on how MP plays postflop. I don't think you're ahead often enough to raise, however, and its not like you're getting any hands to fold that you want folding.

spydog · #3 11-22-2005, 11:48 AM

Raise preflop.

Fold the turn. It's rare that someone fires a bluff on this board into 3 opponents. Pot is small.

RunDownHouse · #4 11-22-2005, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop.

Fold the turn. It's rare that someone fires a bluff on this board into 3 opponents. Pot is small.

[/ QUOTE ]
But its not rare for them to bet a 7 or 9. The problem is that it could just as easily be an A or K, which is why I think the turn decision depends a lot on MP. If he calls the turn with just about any real hand, I think you have to fold.

Spicymoose · #5 11-22-2005, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop.

Fold the turn. It's rare that someone fires a bluff on this board into 3 opponents. Pot is small.

[/ QUOTE ]
But its not rare for them to bet a 7 or 9. The problem is that it could just as easily be an A or K, which is why I think the turn decision depends a lot on MP. If he calls the turn with just about any real hand, I think you have to fold.

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MP can easily have a flush draw, straight draw, or a worse pair. I don't think either of them have an A or K, has neither bet the flop, and they are both kinda agressive.

Spicymoose · #6 11-22-2005, 01:51 PM

I agree that I probably should of raised preflop.

I am unsure of whether or not to bet this flop. Against 3 opponents, I don't know if this will work even close to enough, but against 2, I think I probably bet this board.

What do most people do on this turn? I don't think folding is an option. My thinking was that I could possibly have value, and since I was going to have to call a river bet anyway most of the time, I figured I would go for the free showdown play.

I think betting the river might have value, but I was not sure. Given MPs call on the turn, I figure he is on a draw, or has a pair almost certainly worse then mine (although I guess he could have J9 or Q9 or something, but I don't think it is that often). SB completed, so his range could be pretty wide. Again, I thought I might have him beat (with a hand he would call the river), but I wasn't sure.

Anyone else have thoughts on the matter?

pal=m · #7 11-22-2005, 02:01 PM

I'd see raising as marginal in a larger pot here, but not worth the investment in this tiny one. Even the draws that could be out there will beat you occasionally. You could call, hoping to check-thru your medium pair. Just don't see the pot worth spending 2 bets on the turn. I favor folding.

pal

#8 11-22-2005, 02:33 PM

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I agree that I probably should of raised preflop.

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Why? Do you really think T9s is the best hand at that point? Or do we have a read that we'll push the limper out if we bet the flop and he missed?

I've seen folks advocating raising these hands preflop and I'm still trying to get an understanding as to why. SSH wouldn't have you raising it in a full game. Shorthanded is even more about big cards than connectors trying to catch a great flop, so why are we advocating raising T9s?

PTjvs · #9 11-22-2005, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that I probably should of raised preflop.

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Why? Do you really think T9s is the best hand at that point? Or do we have a read that we'll push the limper out if we bet the flop and he missed?

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Because it's very good to isolate weak/passive players who will go to showdown with any piece when your hand has absolutely no showdown value, like T9s. It's even better if one of the blinds are likely to come along & go to showdown with any piece as well.

#10 11-22-2005, 03:58 PM

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[ QUOTE ]

Why? Do you really think T9s is the best hand at that point? Or do we have a read that we'll push the limper out if we bet the flop and he missed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's very good to isolate weak/passive players who will go to showdown with any piece when your hand has absolutely no showdown value, like T9s. It's even better if one of the blinds are likely to come along & go to showdown with any piece as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

So would you raise 23s in this situation? 45s? 78s? Are we just counting on the fact we can outplay them post flop?

I just don't get trying to isolate with what we're pretty damn sure is a worse hand than the person were isolating. Raising with a worse hand is -EV right? What makes it +EV in the long run?

There's some key concept I'm just not groking.