The most insightful quote ever

gibs · #1 11-10-2004, 02:44 PM

I was playing in my regular home game last night and one of my buddies decided to share his insight with the rest of the table. Right after my aces had gotten cracked he said, "That's the thing about aces. You win some small pots with them but you mainly lose a lot of big pots with them." Now there are a lot of dumb things said at my home game since most of the players are that of the new breed who have gotten their poker education from watching the WPT and from watching Rounders. Most of the time I just let these comments slide, but I just couldn't resist responding to this gem. So I respond, "That is possibly the worst insight I have ever heard." He tried to rationalize his position by claiming that people will always hang in there and draw out on you. I told him if he wanted he could look at some of my stats and see just how bad pocket aces have been for me. He only seemed to partially give in when I told him that the reason people think this is because people tend to remember the bad beats they take when they hold big hands more than all the times they win with those same big hands. I just couldn't believe that anybody, no matter how little they knew about poker, could think that pocket aces are not a profitable hand. But that was my only comedy for the night as I started out good but then kept running into bigger hands. Ran into a straight flush and four of kind 9s through out the night. Just one of those nights.

grandgnu · #2 11-10-2004, 02:49 PM

Actually, I think Doyle Brunson said that Aces will win you small pots and cost you big ones.

Probably because Aces can be hard for someone to lay down. You feel like you HAVE to win the pot, you have Aces (even if the flop brings a straight and obvious flush draw and you don't have a piece of any of it)

So I think your friend makes a good point. If people don't have anything decent your aces won't get paid off. And if they do have something decent, then they might flop or draw out on you with a straight or flush and crack your aces.

Hell, I've had my aces bested by 9's on the river and by A/J when a J hit the flop and turn. Granted, I think Aces are great, but I'd rather have a hand I can fold than a hand that costs me lots of chips and gets busted.

mrmookid · #3 11-10-2004, 02:50 PM

I think you might have an easier time explaining this to him by showing him. Tell him "I will play you heads up. Each hand I get to have AA. You can choose any other hand you want except for the other 2 aces. Play for an hour and see if he still disagrees (and has any money left!!)

Richard Tanner · #4 11-10-2004, 03:37 PM

okay, assuming you don't know my cards and I take 10-9s, whenever I make something I'll win alot, as your hand will be difficult to release (as stated above) but when you make something (or in the case that the flop misses me) I just muck the hand and start over.
When dealt hot a cold (i.e. without betting) aces are great of course, but in dealing with actual post-flop play, I'm not sure who would win that bet.

Cody

theWhale · #5 11-10-2004, 03:45 PM

He is correct in some cases. In no limit with all the money in pre flop, well ya that is a no brainer. But if you make me pay $5 to see a flop with aces and i hit a set and bust you for $1000 1/8 times (which is the odds of flopping a set) you will lose money. I think his point is valid, if you can't lay aces down, they can cost you money many times.

In limit poker, aces are less costly when you lose but you still need to know when to lay them down.

-w

gojacketz · #6 11-10-2004, 03:47 PM

I will take any two random cards. If I know you have AA every time I will crush you in the long run, unless you know that I know you have AA every time and push in preflop - which is the only way you will beat any decent player in this scenario.

Gojacketz

gibs · #7 11-10-2004, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, I've had my aces bested by 9's on the river and by A/J when a J hit the flop and turn. Granted, I think Aces are great, but I'd rather have a hand I can fold than a hand that costs me lots of chips and gets busted.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't get this. You're saying you'd rather have a hand like pocket fives where if you don't hit it's easy to get away from than a hand like pocket aces? Yes, aces do get drawn out on and you can lose a lot in those hands, but that is more than made up for by the big pots that aces can win. Aces are not listed at the top of the hand ranking just because they look pretty, it's because they win the most money. That was the whole point, that aces will win more than any other hand. I would like to see someone's poker tracker database that shows their aces not winning much.

gibs · #8 11-10-2004, 04:00 PM

I'm not sure what this explains. Of course if you know what I'm holding you will beat me every time since you can fold every time except for the time that you can beat me. How is that relevent to a normal game where your opponents obiously don't know what you have?

gojacketz · #9 11-10-2004, 04:10 PM

I was responding to mrmookid and Richard Tanners conversation about playing heads up with one player having AA every time.

Perhaps you are giving off a tell when you pick up a big pair and your opponent does know what you have? Some of the guys in my home game light up like a Christmas tree when they get a pair of aces in their hands - and I will call a small raise preflop with just about anything when we are playing no limit.

Gojacketz

grandgnu · #10 11-10-2004, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get this. You're saying you'd rather have a hand like pocket fives where if you don't hit it's easy to get away from than a hand like pocket aces? Yes, aces do get drawn out on and you can lose a lot in those hands, but that is more than made up for by the big pots that aces can win. Aces are not listed at the top of the hand ranking just because they look pretty, it's because they win the most money. That was the whole point, that aces will win more than any other hand. I would like to see someone's poker tracker database that shows their aces not winning much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said I'd rather have 5's that I can get away with. I'm just saying I'd prefer a hand I could fold pre-flop than a great hand (like Aces) that get outdrawn or outflopped (i.e. I'd rather WIN my hands than lose them, follow?)

Yes, Aces are awesome and if I could get them every hand that would be wonderful. But they can cost you a lot of chips if you overvalue them after the flop comes. There are some players who don't have the discipline to realize that their aces are beat and will stick around even though there are obvious flushes or straights out there.

Kinda like having A/K and the flop is A/K/2 and you think you're gold except for the small blind over there with a pair of 2's in the pocket. Ouch.