Addon or not

[DVC Calif]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in the 45k on stars, i won't take the addon if i'm like 25k+... and even then i still take it like half the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do that? It used to be you couldn't addon if you had more than 20k.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stars only limits the rebuys for 20k stacks on their satellites tourneys (at least for the $3/$5 RAs into the Sunday tournaments).

[play2win]

If I am around the average stack I will do it. If I am in the top 30 I don't, because you have so many chips, it is unlikely that an extra 2000 or so chips makes or breaks you. Usually I do, it is usually a good price for the % chips it gets you. If I am very low than I don't either, because I will probably be going out soon anyways. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[benneh]

[ QUOTE ]
If I am around the average stack I will do it. If I am in the top 30 I don't, because you have so many chips, it is unlikely that an extra 2000 or so chips makes or breaks you. Usually I do, it is usually a good price for the % chips it gets you. If I am very low than I don't either, because I will probably be going out soon anyways. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

wow. that's plain stupid.

chief will say he's made the final table a majority of times with just the minimum chips at addon time. i've made a final table once with the minimum at addon time. not adding on "cause you're probably busting soon" is stupid thinking. you must really suck at poker or have serious confidence issues. either way, doesn't seem like poker is the game for you.

[McMelchior]

No offense, but if anything is "stupid" it's your post.

Poker is the game for you if you like it and are having fun playing it. Whether you're good or bad, winning or losing, are a pro champ of have seriously misconstrued ideas about how to play it. Period.

Anybody who reads this board and especially those who posts here have some idea that it's possible to improve your game. Going out of your way to tell a poster that
[ QUOTE ]
you must really suck at poker or have serious confidence issues

[/ QUOTE ] is redundant, unnecessary and counter productive to maintaining an inspired and fruitful discussion here.

Plain and simply: Stupid.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[fnurt]

Johan is right about the tone. Fact is, a lot of people have misconceptions when it comes to rebuys and addons, and we're here to correct those things. We don't need to berate people because they haven't had the benefit of our wisdom just yet.

That said, you should always add on.

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
If I am very low than I don't either, because I will probably be going out soon anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a serious misconception.

The lowest possible stack you can have after add-on is t3,501. Since the blinds at this point will be t75/t150 with no ante (it's costing you t225 to sit a round, or less than 7% of your stack), this stack is plenty to play from with good chances of doubling or quadrupling.

This is especially true because the play generally is horrible in this phase.

Not taking the add-on for $10 is giving up a genuine chance to make the money. With even the marginal spots paying around $60 this would be a serious mistake - there's a huge overlay on the $10 investment.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[play2win]

Thanks Johan!

[ QUOTE ]
wow. that's plain stupid.

chief will say he's made the final table a majority of times with just the minimum chips at addon time. i've made a final table once with the minimum at addon time. not adding on "cause you're probably busting soon" is stupid thinking. you must really suck at poker or have serious confidence issues. either way, doesn't seem like poker is the game for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, nice to know I am an idiot. So, you think adding on when you are "very low" is smart? Let's think about that one:

1. If you add on and come up to at best 50% of the average stack you will be called in short handed pots even with strong holdings. You can't force anyone out becasue you have lost the power to bust people out, so they don't have to risk their tournament life on a all-in bet made by you. Online players are usually loose, so they will call your set on the flush draw and might knock you out.

2. The plain and obvious case that someone with a nail through their head can figure out. You probably will add-on to reach about 20-30% the average stack. Unless you get very lucky and catch aces and kings right away and repeatidly (and they hold up) you will get blinded down and have to make a stand with PP 5's or something similar, an Ax in the blinds will call you (as he should) because you can't even double the blinds and you get busted out.

Basically you need to double up 3+ times (assuming you lose some to the blinds) to get back around the average stack (which is continuing to grow so your 20-30% ave stack size is shrinking). You won't have chips to push someone around or make a play, so you will most likely get action and have to be all-in. Unless you get lucky and seem to get an over pair preflop your chances of holding up 3x in a short amount of time are slim. This is of course assuming you get hands to make moves with in the first place, if not then you are back to being blinded away.

All things being equal your % to win is equal to what % of all the chips in play you have in front of you. The better move is to keep the money in your bankroll for a fresh start in another tournament. But if you don't care about things like that go ahead and do it.

By all means, keep thrwoing your frivilous add-ons in (not talking a rebuy or during the rebuy period). You just make the prize pool bigger for thoose who have a better chance of making a run for it. Also thanks for the insulting, factless, and otherwise unhelpful post. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[play2win]

The original statement was: "add-on"

So I am sssuming a few things here:

He is not meaning a rebuy+add-on = $20

Yes, I agree in that type of format ($10) it would be the right move if you would be back at 3501 chips. This is assuming you had 1501 chips before the break.

But if you were really down to 1 chip and you were to only add-on is it worth the $10+1 buy-in + $10 add-on the shoot for $60?

Even if he were to rebuy and add-on for $31 total with 3501 chips to have a chance to double his money over the next few hours of play is it worth it? Coming back into a field of 500+ people I assume with an average of 7k chips counts doesn't seem to add up to me.

After the first hours I assume he is meaning that it is the first break, there is no re-buy option, only one last add-on. After this point there is no option to re-buy. Am I correct? I could be wrong, but that is just my take. Please correct me if you think so.

[benneh]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Johan!

[ QUOTE ]
wow. that's plain stupid.

chief will say he's made the final table a majority of times with just the minimum chips at addon time. i've made a final table once with the minimum at addon time. not adding on "cause you're probably busting soon" is stupid thinking. you must really suck at poker or have serious confidence issues. either way, doesn't seem like poker is the game for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, nice to know I am an idiot. So, you think adding on when you are "very low" is smart? Let's think about that one:

1. If you add on and come up to at best 50% of the average stack you will be called in short handed pots even with strong holdings. You can't force anyone out becasue you have lost the power to bust people out, so they don't have to risk their tournament life on a all-in bet made by you. Online players are usually loose, so they will call your set on the flush draw and might knock you out.

2. The plain and obvious case that someone with a nail through their head can figure out. You probably will add-on to reach about 20-30% the average stack. Unless you get very lucky and catch aces and kings right away and repeatidly (and they hold up) you will get blinded down and have to make a stand with PP 5's or something similar, an Ax in the blinds will call you (as he should) because you can't even double the blinds and you get busted out.

Basically you need to double up 3+ times (assuming you lose some to the blinds) to get back around the average stack (which is continuing to grow so your 20-30% ave stack size is shrinking). You won't have chips to push someone around or make a play, so you will most likely get action and have to be all-in. Unless you get lucky and seem to get an over pair preflop your chances of holding up 3x in a short amount of time are slim. This is of course assuming you get hands to make moves with in the first place, if not then you are back to being blinded away.

All things being equal your % to win is equal to what % of all the chips in play you have in front of you. The better move is to keep the money in your bankroll for a fresh start in another tournament. But if you don't care about things like that go ahead and do it.

By all means, keep thrwoing your frivilous add-ons in (not talking a rebuy or during the rebuy period). You just make the prize pool bigger for thoose who have a better chance of making a run for it. Also thanks for the insulting, factless, and otherwise unhelpful post. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

going into the 2nd hour with 5k still sllows for post flop play. your M is still in the 20s! no, you can't bust people out, but you don't need to. you just need to double up, and ohyu don tneed aces or kings to do that. you won't get blinded out if you know what you're doing (unless lady luck just isn't on your side, which is possible).

im not good at quoting so ill just do it manually..

"1. If you add on and come up to at best 50% of the average stack you will be called in short handed pots even with strong holdings. You can't force anyone out becasue you have lost the power to bust people out, so they don't have to risk their tournament life on a all-in bet made by you. Online players are usually loose, so they will call your set on the flush draw and might knock you out. "

what in the hell is wrong with people sticking in with flush draws vs your set? I will take that gamble 100% of the time. I am thrilled that someone will stay in a pot with me whenever I have a set. whetehr i have him covered or he has me covered never affects my decision when I've got a set (unless its clear he has already made the flush or straight). my point is, why would you ever wnat to force anyone out when you've got a monster? your tourney is at risk, sure, but you've also got a chance to double up.

"2. The plain and obvious case that someone with a nail through their head can figure out. You probably will add-on to reach about 20-30% the average stack. Unless you get very lucky and catch aces and kings right away and repeatidly (and they hold up) you will get blinded down and have to make a stand with PP 5's or something similar, an Ax in the blinds will call you (as he should) because you can't even double the blinds and you get busted out. "

What kind of poker are you playing? I never let myself get blinded down so far that I cant even raise twice the blinds. In fact, that is just a plain silly comment to make. Like I said, your M is 20!!!! going into the 2nd hour. You've got 20 orbits around the tgable at that blidn level, and you've still got plenty as the blidns go up.And I don't know about you, but I don't sit around and wait for aces and kings when my M is 20.

Also, all your talk about average stack is kind of irrelevant. The average stack in a tourney doesn't matter. It's average stack at your table that matters, but even then its not that big of a deal since you've got plenty of room to play. ZYou just lose the ability to bully people around, which in fact isn't even very effective at this point of play.

"By all means, keep thrwoing your frivilous add-ons in (not talking a rebuy or during the rebuy period). You just make the prize pool bigger for thoose who have a better chance of making a run for it."

People like me, you mean? I will. The extra $10 or $5 or whatever doesn't matter much to me when I take down a final table spot.

"Also thanks for the insulting, factless, and otherwise unhelpful post. "

It's 2+2. Tough love.

[fnurt]

When we talk about rebuy tourneys, we are generally talking about large online events, like the nightly $45k guaranteed on Stars. In these tournaments that attract ~1000 people, it is always mathematically correct to add-on, whether you have a large or small stack at the end of the rebuy period.

The math works like this. In a large tourney, when you are a long way from the money, your cash EV will always be equal to the percentage of chips in play which you hold, possibly with exceptions for extremely large or extremely small stacks. Now, your 2000 chips add-on always represents the same percentage of the total chips in play, regardless of how big your stack is otherwise. So by taking the add-on, you always increase your EV by the same, fixed amount, whether you have a large or small stack.

Confused? Let's look at this with numbers instead.

Let's assume a typical huge Stars tournament, with 1200 entries, 3000 rebuys, and 800 add-ons. That's a total prize pool of $50,000. It also means there are 7.9 million chips in play (1500 for each entry and rebuy; 2000 for each add-on).

So say you have 2500 chips at the end of the rebuy period. Your EV is (2500 / 7,900,000) * $50,000 = $15.82.

If you buy the add-on, you have 4500 chips, and your EV is (4500 / 7,900,000) * $50,000 = $28.48.

So for your $10 add-on, you have gained $12.66 in cash EV. Obviously a good investment. Let's look at an example with a larger stack.

Say you have 20,000 chips at the end of the rebuy period. Your EV is (20,000 / 7,900,000) * $50,000 = $126.58.

If you take the add-on, your EV is (22,000 / 7,900,000) * $50,000 = $139.24.

Therefore, by taking the add-on with a large stack, you have gained the SAME $12.66 in cash EV! It makes no difference if you have a large or small stack. The add-on is always a good investment and you should always take it.

Moving beyond the realm of theory, there are exceptions in the real world. If you have an extremely large stack, your EV is no longer precisely equal to your percentage of chips in play. For example, let's say at the end of the rebuy period, you own half the chips in play (this is hard to do). Obviously, you are not going to be worth half the prize pool, because that would be more than 1st prize! The reason this happens is that because you can only win one prize, your EV gets distorted as you get closer to the money. This will never come into play in the first hour of a huge tournament, though.

Fossilman's position is apparently that you can skip the add-on if your stack is big enough that you would be an average stack once you get in the money. In our example, that would be (7,900,000 / 135) = ~585,000 chips. This may seem very high, but the fact is, even if your EV in the tournament is worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars, it's still going to be a good investment to add another $12.66 of EV for $10 cash.

The other exception is when you have a very small stack. This won't be an issue in a big Stars tourney, because you will always have at least 20-25 big blinds, with plenty of time to double up. But in a smaller tourney, if your stack is so small that no one even needs to respect you, there may not be a point in taking an add-on, or even rebuying past a certain point in the rebuy period. I played a turbo satellite on Paradise where the blinds were up to 300/600 and the rebuy period wasn't even over yet. Obviously, there's no point in buying back into a tourney for full price when you're barely going to get enough chips to see the blinds once.

I hope looking at it in this more mathematical way was helpful to someone.