Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown

DeathDonkey · #1 06-28-2005, 04:03 PM

This situation occurred as I just sat down in a 10/20 at my local casino. I took the 4 seat and it was one of the first hands I saw at the table, I was not involved in the hand. The 8 seat raised and the 3 seat (on my immediate right) called. Both are experienced players and I know them both and am friendly with both etc.

Flop was something like A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 seat checks, 8 seat bets, 3 seat calls.

Turn is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 seat now bets, 8 seat calls.

River is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 seat bets, 8 seat calls.

3 seat announces "Queen" and shows Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for Queen high no flush. 8 seat looks at it quickly and looks mad and begins to muck but clearly flashes the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I realize he thinks 3 seat has the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for some reason. Both the 3 seat and I see the flashed cards from across the table but he mucks them face down and the dealer pushes the pot to the 3 seat.

I am friendly with the 8 seat and like him a whole lot better than the 3 seat, so I feel a bit bad for him. I watch 3 seat to see if he is going to say anything but he begins stacking and I quietly say to him "you're gonna take that that way?" And he sorta gives me a dirty look and shrugs and I shake my head and say nothing more.

Anyone handle this differently?

-DeathDonkey

TheWorstPlayer · #2 06-28-2005, 04:13 PM

Speak up faster or don't speak up at all. Once the cards hit the muck, I'm not saying anything - although I would shoot a look at the 3 seat probably.

Jimmy The Fish · #3 06-28-2005, 04:22 PM

I've pointed out incorrect dealer decisions when the players turned their cards face up, but I think the player has to show his cards in order to get the deus ex pokina.

If I'm in Seat 8, I'm going to confirm with the dealer that Seat 3 does indeed have the queen-high flush. That's my responsibility as the holder of my hand -- if I muck a winner because I read someone's hole cards wrong, that's my fault. Period. If he gives it back, that's not "right", it's just magnanimity on his part.

If I'm in Seat 3, my action probably depends on my status. I'f I'm playing at a soft table, and I'm ahead, and the mood at the table is favorable, I'd probably write off the hand. I'll get it back, and the goodwill gesture is more likely to loosen players than to tighten them up. On the other hand, if I'm in the middle of a downswing, or Seat 8 has been acting like a jerk, then I might keep it.

belloc · #4 06-28-2005, 04:35 PM

My general rule in the cardroom is not to get involved in discussion unless I'm involved in the hand. If there's a dispute between two players (or something like what happened to you), I leave it to the dealer/floorman to officiate, and for the players to defend themselves. As much as it feels wrong to let injustice go unnoticed, it just isn't your place to get involved.

beerbandit · #5 06-28-2005, 04:38 PM

a lot of it would depend on how he said queen --- it seems you would be able to tell if said to sound like the flush or just queen high

not being in the hand or even "at" the table yet would have somethign to do with it also

but if he said queen and opened his hand on the table and the other player mucked, then it would appear to be his own fault

-- i was a little to late to say anthing also, once the hands are in the muck and the other player has the pot

if the player with qj [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] saw the other players hand i do not think that he handled the situation properly

cheers

canis582 · #6 06-28-2005, 04:45 PM

Ive been in this situation. A nice loud 'HOLD ON' is in order, otherwise its over before you know it.

The guy was shooting an angle, So are the mucked cards still live?

jedi · #7 06-28-2005, 04:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ive been in this situation. A nice loud 'HOLD ON' is in order, otherwise its over before you know it.

The guy was shooting an angle, So are the mucked cards still live?

[/ QUOTE ]

No one was shooting an angle here. One guy clearly mucked his cards. End of story. Reading the board is a poker skill as well. If I was the OP, I would have mentioned it after the pot was pushed, "Why did you muck the winning hand?"

True story: My friend and I are playing 3/6 at local B&M. He has Kx, board is K88x8 (3 clubs). He calls a bet on the river. Bettor flashes him 2 clubs and my friend throws his hand away. After the pot is pushed, I ask him "You didn't even have a pair?" He responds, "Yeah, i had a King." "Dude, you just threw away a winning hand." This was a hand he was entitled to showdown because he called the last bet, but because he's a donk and can't read the board threw away the winner.

No one shot an angle here, the guy was just being a donk.

bernie · #8 06-28-2005, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone handle this differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

He didn't table his cards. It's his own fault for losing this pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Both are experienced players

[/ QUOTE ]

One of them doesn't seem to fit this description.

b

bernie · #9 06-28-2005, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Speak up faster or don't speak up at all. Once the cards hit the muck, I'm not saying anything - although I would shoot a look at the 3 seat probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP isn't in the hand plus it's not his hand to protect. He shouldn't speak up at all.

b

bernie · #10 06-28-2005, 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if the player with qj saw the other players hand i do not think that he handled the situation properly

[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly is he supposed to handle it.

The hand doesn't end until the pot is pushed. If some idiot wants to muck the winner, and I've been that idiot before, screw him. That's why you table your hand and let the 'cardspeak'.

b