Ty Law

[McGahee]

Are you talking to me? Did you read my post?
I'm agreeing with you. He's a top 3 CB and it's an important position. I think anybody who considers Woodson & Barber to be better players are off their rocker...
The one thing I agree with Contentless on is that the term "shutdown corner" is way overused.

[CollinEstes]

I was talking to the other guy. Just hit reply to you on accident.

[sam h]

I just can't imagine him being healthy if he has not attracted more interest. I don't think its really an age thing, since corners often age pretty well, or at least don't decline as fast as other guys. When he's 100%, he's still a top guy and a difference maker. Just ask Peyton.

[CollinEstes]

Yeah I agree there has to be something still wrong with him.

But how many times to see GMs and Coachs make the safe decision and then regret it.

I mean remember how many teams passed on Randy Moss in the draft because of his attitude.

Somebody needs to take a chance. The risk is worth the reward IMO.

[contentless]

[ QUOTE ]
I think every coach/GM would disagree that it's a "minor position".

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious - what defensive positions are less important than CB? Surely not the line - no CB can play well when their line sucks - CBs don't even factor in. The line could care less if the CB is good if they're good enough. Linebacker? No. Safety, maybe, but one could argue that the secondary is exactly what it is - secondary.

Cornerback is probably the most overrated position on the entire field. At least with safeties no one feigns like they're important. "A good shutdown corner" you say. Right, against 2nd rate receivers, sure, he can shut down the field. It's really too bad that a good shutdown corner cannot shutdown a 1st-tier WR, and their salaries match up. Face it - cornerbacks are simply undersized receivers with bad hands. And good cornerbacks - well, the same thing, but somewhat better.

Factor in the 'point of emphasis', and that seals the deal. I'm not saying Law ISN'T worth it, but in my mind, no cornerback really is.

As for 'when healthy' - Law hasn't played in a year. Talent-wise he doesn't stack up to the elite cornerbacks either. Knowledge and instincts - sure, maybe, I don't know that for sure. I, as a Pats fan, certainly feel that the Pats defensive scheme certainly made him look better than he was. Is it crazy for GMs to be wary of a 30 year old coming off foot surgery that hasn't played for a year? I don't think so.

Regardless, if Law has been lamenting his misfortune, that's his right, but I definitely don't think he deserves the attention.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think every coach/GM would disagree that it's a "minor position".

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious - what defensive positions are less important than CB? Surely not the line - no CB can play well when their line sucks - CBs don't even factor in. The line could care less if the CB is good if they're good enough. Linebacker? No. Safety, maybe, but one could argue that the secondary is exactly what it is - secondary.

Cornerback is probably the most overrated position on the entire field. At least with safeties no one feigns like they're important. "A good shutdown corner" you say. Right, against 2nd rate receivers, sure, he can shut down the field. It's really too bad that a good shutdown corner cannot shutdown a 1st-tier WR, and their salaries match up. Face it - cornerbacks are simply undersized receivers with bad hands. And good cornerbacks - well, the same thing, but somewhat better.

Factor in the 'point of emphasis', and that seals the deal. I'm not saying Law ISN'T worth it, but in my mind, no cornerback really is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Safety is one. LB is another IMO. I watched the Bills go from worst to 1 of the best run defenses in the league the last few years with the same London Fletcher playing MLB. Unless you're Ray Lewis, for the most part they're only as good as the DT's in front of them and the schemes they're in.

I would agree that DT is crucial. I dunno about DE. A consistent pass-rushing, QB terrorizing DE is probably the hardest and maybe the most coveted position to fill on defense, but again - unless you're one of the top 5 DE's in the league, there really isn't much difference between 6-30, is there? They all have games where they disappear for long stretches.

I really think CB is one of the few positions where the difference between a "C+" and a "B" player is a significant difference and it's noticable almost every game.

The whole "point of emphasis" thing is way overblown, and it was basically a cop-out by the front office who didn't want to admit they completely botched the AFC title game. "Uhh, we're not going to change the rules but we're going to enforce them this year". Whatever - the judgement calls on PI flags have sucked and generally gone in favor of the offense since I've been watching football. I didn't notice much of a difference last year - the '03 title game was just a fluke thing.

I realize the Patriots won last year with nobodies in the secondary, but they also won 2 SB's with Antowain Smith as their starting RB. Nobody is going to duplicate their formula with the same success unless their coach is Bill Bellichek.

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think every coach/GM would disagree that it's a "minor position".

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious - what defensive positions are less important than CB? Surely not the line - no CB can play well when their line sucks - CBs don't even factor in. The line could care less if the CB is good if they're good enough. Linebacker? No. Safety, maybe, but one could argue that the secondary is exactly what it is - secondary.

Cornerback is probably the most overrated position on the entire field. At least with safeties no one feigns like they're important. "A good shutdown corner" you say. Right, against 2nd rate receivers, sure, he can shut down the field. It's really too bad that a good shutdown corner cannot shutdown a 1st-tier WR, and their salaries match up. Face it - cornerbacks are simply undersized receivers with bad hands. And good cornerbacks - well, the same thing, but somewhat better.

Factor in the 'point of emphasis', and that seals the deal. I'm not saying Law ISN'T worth it, but in my mind, no cornerback really is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Safety is one. LB is another IMO. I watched the Bills go from worst to 1 of the best run defenses in the league the last few years with the same London Fletcher playing MLB. Unless you're Ray Lewis, for the most part they're only as good as the DT's in front of them and the schemes they're in.

I would agree that DT is crucial. I dunno about DE. A consistent pass-rushing, QB terrorizing DE is probably the hardest and maybe the most coveted position to fill on defense, but again - unless you're one of the top 5 DE's in the league, there really isn't much difference between 6-30, is there? They all have games where they disappear for long stretches.

I really think CB is one of the few positions where the difference between a "C+" and a "B" player is a significant difference and it's noticable almost every game.

The whole "point of emphasis" thing is way overblown, and it was basically a cop-out by the front office who didn't want to admit they completely botched the AFC title game. "Uhh, we're not going to change the rules but we're going to enforce them this year". Whatever - the judgement calls on PI flags have sucked and generally gone in favor of the offense since I've been watching football. I didn't notice much of a difference last year - the '03 title game was just a fluke thing.

I realize the Patriots won last year with nobodies in the secondary, but they also won 2 SB's with Antowain Smith as their starting RB. Nobody is going to duplicate their formula with the same success unless their coach is Bill Bellichek.

[/ QUOTE ]

The most importanet position on either side of the ball is the line, and it's not even close. You could have the '86 Giants LB corp, put them behind the Browns' D-line the last few years, and they still wouldn't have finished in the top 15 in run defense. You could have Darrell Green and Deon Sanders in the prime of their careers as your starting corners, but if you don't have a pass rush, any good qb is going to pick the defense apart.

DT's are critical because they clog and blow up the running lanes inside to free up the lb's to make plays. In a 4-3 scheme, if your two DT's aren't occupying all three interior offensive linemen on running plays, it won't matter if you have Ray Lewis playing MLB, the defense is going to get run on all day (a good example of this is Chiefs-Ravens Monday night game last year). DT's are also crucial with regards to defending the pass. They don't have to get alot of sacks, but they have to push the interior o-lineman back and get enough penetration so the QB can't step up in the pocket to avoid the pass rush from the outside.

DE's are most important with regards to rushing the passer. If your de's can't beat the offensive tackles they're facing one on one, then you're going to have to bring one or more blitzers to generate any sort of pass rush. A dominant pass rushing defensive end can probably alter a game more so than any other defensive player, by making the offense double/triple team them on passing plays. DE's are also crucial when defending against the run, as they usually have the contain responsibilities with regards to outside running plays, and they are directly at the point of attack on any off tackle running play.

I think the next most important position is to have at least 1 CB who can cover basically any WR man to man for 3 seconds of less. If you have one CB who has this ability, then you can get by with a serviceable CB on the other side as you can give him help with one of the safeties. Conerbacks are much more important than safeties. Free safeties are mostly defensive backs with above average tackling ability, who aren't good enough at man to man coverage to play corner. Strong safeties are essentially a hybrid free safety/outside lb. They need to be good tacklers and have the ability to cover TE's man to man. I would go so far as to say that a defense's nickel corner is just as important as their safeties on most teams.

As far as the importance of linebackers goes, it depends. If you're playing a 3-4 scheme, then your outside linebackers are just as important as a 4-3 team's defensive ends, because they are the primary pass rushers. In a defense running a 4-3 scheme, your OLB's aren't as important, unless your De's suck, in which case you better have 2 pro bowl caliber olb's who can blitz and provide a pass rush (see Washington's defense last year). A defense also needs at least one olb who has good coverage skills for passing downs. The mlb position is less important, as they are completely dependent on the d-line occupying the o-line to free them up to make plays. London Fletcher, who another poster brought up, is a good example. Jeremiah Trotter's first year with Washington after signing that huge deal is another great example of this.

I would rank the importance of the various defensive positions as follows:

4-3
DT/DE
CB
OLB
S/MLB

3-4
NT
DE/OLB
CB
S/MLB

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]

The most importanet position on either side of the ball is the line, and it's not even close.


[/ QUOTE ]

All things being equal, I agree...
But things aren't equal. My point was, there aren't that many great pass-rushers in the game today: Javon Kearse, Jason Taylor, Dwight Freeney, Julias Peppers, Simeon Rice...
I think you're splitting hairs when you try to rank the next 20 DE's.

At CB, there's a more noticable difference in talent between the 'elite' and 'average' starter, as well as the difference between 'average' and 'lousy' starter. That's why guys like Antoine Winfield (who is 'good') cash such a huge check when he hits FA.

FWIW - I also think coaching & good schemes play a HUGE role in the 3-4, more-so than having talented OLB's. Wade Phillips has had very pedestrian LB's in Denver, Buffalo, Atlanta, and now San Diego, and yet his defenses pretty much always rank at the top against the run.

I didn't mean to ignore the rest of your post - I agree with much of it.

[hoopsie44]

If press reports in NY are accurate the Jets are going to take a run at him. Donny Abraham is retiring. Not sure how much cap room Jets have but a relatively healthy Law would be an upgrade over Abraham.

[CollinEstes]

Thanks I was just curious if their where any rumors in any one else's neck of the woods.