Some trouble I'm having with WA/WB, weak A OOP

[damaniac]

Haven't posted in forever, and please forgive me if there has been a change in the 2p2 standard line here since I stopped reading as avidly as I did this summer.

Anyway, the ol' check/call, check/call, bet line with a weak (or even strong) Ace OOP vs. a PFR has been giving me fits lately. Specifically, everyone, TAGs and LAGs included, has been checking behind the turn rather than checking the river. This costs me a bet when ahead, and also creates the interesting decision of whether to bet, hoping he'll try to pick off a bluff, or check and induce a "value bet" on the river. I've been betting and they've been folding, although it is quite possible they have nothing worth showing down or betting.

Here's an example (this is all 6-max but I don't know how much that matters).

TAG (2p2?) raises UGT, LP in MP calls, I call in the BB with A8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Flop is A72, 1 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I check, raiser bets, LP folds, I call.

Turn is a 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4BB's now. I check, he checks.

River is a blank, I bet, he folds.

I realize that this will happen, but it's been happening so often over the last few thousand hands that I feel that betting the turn is better. But then that raises the question, what do I do when raised? And should I induce bluffs on the river or bet? (thinking as a default, I realize that a lot of this is player dependant when I have a read)

Finally, is it better to bet or check the turn in a hand where the flop is (as a default, obviously the player matters):
1)A72
2)AQJ
3)A98, flush draw possible

[BoxLiquid]

I think on an A72 rainbow board it will be hard for even KK to call a river bet after someone calls that flop.

I also think your table image really comes into play when throwing those value bets.

And on that A72 board I would check the river. He gave up completely because there is only 1 hand he's scared of and that flop has absolutely no draws. If you check the river he might bet out thinking you called with a pocket pair or something. I don't know for sure if betting or checking has more positive expectation but I would probably check it.

If the flop had some type of draw it'll be a totally different story.

My 2 cents

I check-raise that flop, then bet out on the turn unless he 3bets.

Anyone without an Ace is going to check behind after you call an Ace high flop with no draws. He's going to assume you called with an Ace or better.

[pokerjunky]

I like a flop check raise here. Your hand is likely best plus your opponents are drawing slim so get the money in while you can. If you get three bet you can easily lay down a non-heart turn.

The problem with check calling the flop then donking the turn is that it sets you up for a showdown raise by an aggressive player with something like KK or QQ. This knocks out the drawing slim guys who you'd rather stay in to make up for the times you are behind to the PF raiser. So given the way you played the flop I like the rest of the hand.

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
I check-raise that flop, then bet out on the turn unless he 3bets.

Anyone without an Ace is going to check behind after you call an Ace high flop with no draws. He's going to assume you called with an Ace or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I thought the point of the OP's line was to let someone represent an A all the way down. If you're checkraising the flop, won't you be winning less from a non-A hand?

[sean c]

No way i am check/raising the flop. A check/call flop, bet the turn line usually just results in a turn fold by villian and giving a free card on the turn isn't terrible and betting the river will still get called by just about anything that will bet. I am not sure what limit you are playing but i haven't seen alot of turn checks lately at 2/4 by aggressive players.

The problem is that the OP is out of position.

With position, they can let someone represent an Ace all the way to the River. If the PFR fails to bet, they can get in a bet.

Out of position, the OP cannot control the hand without betting out. The PFR will only bet the Turn or call the River if they can beat Ace-rag. Otherwise, they check behind.

By not raising the Flop and then by checking the Turn, the OP lets the PFR have 2 shots at improving for one small bet.

Raising the Flop and betting the Turn means charging the PFR a BB for each card he gets.

[damaniac]

That hand was too drawless. Say the board is something like AT8. Should I expect the average/unknown to bet the turn without an A, hoping to charge me for my "draw"? Even these hands have been encountering a lot of turn check-behinds lately, which is a time that I think a bet with QQ or whatever is generally correct.

Also, this is 5/10, 6-max (again, problem applies to general games too so I just thought I'd ask here.)

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
That hand was too drawless. Say the board is something like AT8. Should I expect the average/unknown to bet the turn without an A, hoping to charge me for my "draw"? Even these hands have been encountering a lot of turn check-behinds lately, which is a time that I think a bet with QQ or whatever is generally correct.

Also, this is 5/10, 6-max (again, problem applies to general games too so I just thought I'd ask here.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Damaniac i just don't see betting the turn having any advantage here. If your wb you get raised if your wa villian folds. You also open yourself up to being outplayed oop.

[Nick Royale]

I play 5/10 full, here's some thoughts:

[ QUOTE ]
That hand was too drawless. Say the board is something like AT8. Should I expect the average/unknown to bet the turn without an A, hoping to charge me for my "draw"? Even these hands have been encountering a lot of turn check-behinds lately, which is a time that I think a bet with QQ or whatever is generally correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the TAG is correct to bet the turn in both the original hand and the new.

I don't think a TAG checking this turn would have called a bet. In the first hand he's likely on a hand like KQ/KJ not calling a bet and not gaining any by taking the freecard since he have no outs. Thus, you're actually bot losing any by not betting the turn, but have the chance of gaining if he hits a K/Q/J on the river in which case he'll probably pay of with the 2nd best hand.

I haven't encountered the problem you're talking about and I think a player checking through on the turn is most often making a mistake. But in the first hand you posted, if the TAG has a read on you, he's correct checking through on the turn and folding on the river UI.

I like your idea of how a turn with some draws are better for you to check since a preflop aggressor should charge your possible draw and go for a free sd (assuming he's holding less than a pair of aces). This is player dependant though and this kind of thinking only applies when you're hu against a good player. Against a LAG I wouldn't be worried he'll check through on the turn in any scenario and against some LAGs it's better to check/call all the way down.