Turn in Multiway hand with TT

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I definitely would have waited for the turn to raise.

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Just realized that then the hand would look almost EXACTLY like the hand in the "Two Overpair Hands" -section in SSHE. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Calling is probably best then I assume, perhaps I sometimes have trouble applying the "waiting-for-the-turn-to-raise" concept.

By the way, wouldn't that apply to the original hand also, i.e. just calling the flop is an option? Or is the difference that in the original hand the board is more coordinated, meaning there are more scare cards, making pushing our edge by raising a better play?

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I was referring to the flop.

We call the flop intending to raise any safe turn card and offer gutshots and bottom/middle pair hands incorrect odds to call.

But the turn card ISN'T a SAFE card, so we just call anyway, regardless of what we did on the flop.

We aren't going to add enough equity to our hand by raising the turn - regardless of what we did on the flop.

If MP3 doesn't have us beat already, he holds the overcards you're trying to fold in other's hands anyway. And as I said before the T is always dirtied by any 7 which you can never offer incorrect odds to call. Plus any bottom and middle pair hands are taking equity away from top pair hands
and only adding $ for your draw.

Call the flop.
Call the turn.
River a 7 [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

What makes you think I was talking about the turn? The turn is easy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I was referring to your comment that we should wait for the turn to raise if the 6 was a 3 instead, and I wondered if just calling the flop was an option in the original hand (where the 6 still is a 6).

Edit:
Aaaa, I suppose you had what I wrote earlier in mind:

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Wouldn't change my mind anyway. You still got an overpair with a backdoor straight and could very well have the best hand, and you would really like to get people with an overcard or something to fold, and hopefully people with weak gutshots fold (thus making a mistake).

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That was me talking about the flop if the 6 was a 3, where I advocated a raise.

[hobbsmann]

I think you are losing too much value by not 3-betting preflop. I also like a turn raise for a couple of reason: 1) it is possible that we could clean up our set outs by getting somebody to fold a gutshot by facing them with 2 cold, 2) this is a quasi free showdown situation where you will be able to charge others with flush draws the maximum and considering we are probably showing our hand down anyway we might as well do the most to extract/protect for the times we are ahead.

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What makes you think I was talking about the turn? The turn is easy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I was referring to your comment that we should wait for the turn to raise if the 6 was a 3 instead, and I wondered if just calling the flop was an option in the original hand (where the 6 still is a 6).

Edit:
Aaaa, I suppose you had what I wrote earlier in mind:

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Wouldn't change my mind anyway. You still got an overpair with a backdoor straight and could very well have the best hand, and you would really like to get people with an overcard or something to fold, and hopefully people with weak gutshots fold (thus making a mistake).

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That was me talking about the flop if the 6 was a 3, where I advocated a raise.

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It doesn't matter if the 6 is a 3 or if you have KK instead of TT. It has to do with your ability to be able to protect that hand.

In this case (the 6 and TT) there are two reasons to wait for the turn.
1. The size of the pot (inability to protect)
2. Vulnerability of hand. (marginal equity and number of non-out turn cards)


Number 1 is covered 163-64 SSHE
Number 2 is covered 187-188 SSHE

Thank you, then I got my question answered [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I have no problem with the turn, I suggested a call in my first post. The only thing I wondered about was the waiting-for-the-turn-to-raise concept, and if it was any difference if the 6 was a 3.

I still feel as there is a difference though, that is, there are more safe cards if the 6 was a 3 instead. What I'm implying is that since there really isn't that many safe cards with the 6, so I thought it's better to raise the flop while we "know" we're ahead, pushing our edge. With a 3 instead, there are more safe cards, so in that case it's better to just call and wait for the turn to raise if a safe card comes.

So I suppose I'm not convinced yet.

[Songwind]

16:1 with 10 outs? I call.

[gopnik]

I call, I don't want to raise and get 3-bet.
Easy call to me.

[callmedonnie]

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I'm sorry...I'm talking about the impact that would have on the turn decision if the 6 were a 3.

Basically, I'm looking at whether or not it's worth it to raise to try to get rid of some gutshot should the river come a T. Obviously a 7 wouldn't go anywhere there with the 6 being present.

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From all the calling that has gone on in the hand thus far, I don't know how much I like the chances of anyone folding to a raise.

If the 6 were a 3 and you didn't have straight draw, your hand might be a fold.

[spydog]

Raise the turn. You might clean up some T outs. Worse case scenario is that you get 3-bet and there are only 2 opponents, but that doesn't really cost that much because your equity is still decent.

3-bet PF. You have the 5th best hand in poker and at least 5 people have a worse hand.

[McGahee]

I also 3-bet PF. Like the flop raise. Originally I thought it'd be a good spot to wait till the turn, but I don't know how often MP3 is betting the turn vs. this many opponents with a hand that doesn't crush us.
The turn has so many freaking dimensions to it, I don't know what to think.