Getting bet off top pair too much

[Klak]

heres 2 hands where i had top pair and i folded. were these right?

live 3/6
hand 1:the bettor is very aggressive and the raiser i havent seen much from

i have A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in sb.

5 callers, i call, bb checks.

flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

i check(?), 3 checks, co bets, button raises, i...???

hand 2:both the bettor and raiser have been very aggressive.

i have QJ of [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in utg+1

i call, 3 callers behind me, blinds call

flop is Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

sb bets, bb raises, i..?

[flopmonster]

reraise in both hands and find out where the hell you are at....did u have no reads on the raisers in these hands bc that really would help

[The Goober]

In both of these hands, the raiser is facing the field with calling 2 cold on a nearly drawless board. Most players wouldn't do that with flopped trips - they'd slow-play to try and get overcallers. In both hands you just limped in PF, so you don't have any reason to think that anyone puts you on a strong hand. In both hands the bettor is agressive and is betting out on a board that looks (to them) like a good spot to bluff. In hand 2, both the bettor and agressor are "very agressive" and this could easily be a steal/resteal attempt.

Remember that the paired board means that there are less ways for these guys to connect with it. A lot of agressive players think this way too, and they are going to play something like 77 more strongly on a Q88 board than on a QT2 board.

For these reasons I'd assume that you are ahead both times, and in both hands I'd 3-bet to protect a vurnerable top pair. Especially with agressive players betting and raising these flops, its just too soon to put anyone on trips.

The first one definately looks weak tight. I don't think the buttons raise means you are beat. Especially since he didn't raise preflop, I think you are ahead of him. A lot of pocket pairs like this flop. I say 3-bet, and re-evaluate on the turn.

The second one is a little trickier. You do have a backdoor flush draw. With no reads, I might go for a three-bet, and bet/fold the turn UI. Against really passive players I might be able to find a fold. I don't think folding is bad though.

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
heres 2 hands where i had top pair and i folded. were these right?

live 3/6
hand 1:the bettor is very aggressive and the raiser i havent seen much from

i have A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in sb.

5 callers, i call, bb checks.

flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

i check(?), 3 checks, co bets, button raises, i...???

hand 2:both the bettor and raiser have been very aggressive.

i have QJ of [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in utg+1

i call, 3 callers behind me, blinds call

flop is Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

sb bets, bb raises, i..?

[/ QUOTE ]

The next time you are in this game, I want you to do something for yourself.

RAISE.

Trust me on this, raising is fun, or PHAT! or cool, hip, wicked bad. Whatever your jargon, it's definetly one of the better aspects of the game. Apply pressure to the other players, put the screws to them and see what happens.

In the first hand I'm raising preflop. It's not going to make you tons of money but it will make you money and you get a chance to raise. Always a good thing. As you played it, you have to 3 bet this flop, clear out callers row behind you and see what the co and button do. You may be beat, but against aggressive players your not going to beat the majority of the time.

Now in the second hand, I may fold, or I may raise depending on how I feel about the blinds. Let's be honest, we didn't enter the hand hoping for top pair, but we didn't get a AKTs flop either did we? The way you describe the players I like a 3 bet, and I'm looking to get rid of the hand to any more aggression, and likely to any cold calls. By their nature the 8's are a little more dangerous paired than the 4's are.

[siccjay]

I raise both of these hands preflop.

Definitely bet the flop on hand one. Hand 2 probably plays differently if you raise preflop.

[bambi]

I muck QJs utg+1 most of the time,

[siccjay]

Yuck. This hand is pretty!

[ QUOTE ]
Yuck. This hand is pretty!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but QJs utg+1 can get you in a lot of trouble depending on the texture of the game.

[Nick Royale]

Hand 1:
I don't raise preflop, as suggested by slavic. If the limpers are terrible we have an edge, but I think our edge rarely is big and I like to keep the pot small instead.

On the flop I probably just bet out, but given your check I think folding is terrible. Aggressive players will bet tons of hands in CO here. Not only worse Js but PP's like 99/88. The player raising seems to want to get rid of the rest of the field. We have no reason what so ever to put him on a 4, most likely he has a J and we have him outkicked. Folding here would be terrible IMO even though the pot is still not very big. 3-bet!


Hand 2:
I think the flop is a fold most often. In this case it's not unlikely for us to be up against flopped trips OR be outkicked. The pot is not big enough to be worth fighting for. Fold.


EDIT:
Now I've read most of the other responses. Some thoughts of others thoughts:
1. Folding QJs UTG+1 is bad IMO. Raise or call, depending on the table.
2. Raising in hand 1 preflop could be made if we have reads on the limpers as terrible.
3. I really think we need good reads on the blinds in hand 2 to make a 3-bet correct on the flop. Our investment is huge compared to the potsize and we have no clue where we're at. And as slavic said "By their nature the 8's are a little more dangerous paired than the 4's are".