Scandinavia - working socialist economies?

[tylerdurden]

So if I steal just *a little bit*, it's OK? I mean, come on, I didn't rob Fort Knox! Everybody else is doing it!

[tylerdurden]

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Most people in scandinavia probably think property rights are important, but that social welfare is more important.

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Is it OK to steal from a fat guy if you give his money to poor people? He's fat, he must be eating more than enough, right?

[tylerdurden]

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No it doesn't. A lot of people believe in taxation, even if they don't like it. I don't like paying taxes. That doesn't mean I won't pay them, or that I don't see the utility behind taxation. And a lot of people feel the same way I do. Moreso probably in scandinavia then in the US. You just have a tough time imagining this is the truth for some reason.

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I just re-read this. First you said if taxes were voluntary, people wouldn't pay them. Now you're saying that you would, and that most other people would, too.

Are you just worried that there might be some small minority that doesn't want to participate in your "social welfare" scheme? What's so horrible about that? Why can't you just leave them alone? Maybe you're worried that the small minority isn't so small?

[tylerdurden]

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You keep comparing taxation to other types of oppression. Most people just don't see it as THAT oppressive.

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Chaung Tsu:

"A petty thief is put in jail. A great brigand becomes ruler of the state."

[hetron]

If stealing from the fat guy means someone doesn't have to die in the street homeless, or some kid who is dying of cancer but parents can't afford to pay for chemo gets to live, I think the people of scandinavia have pretty much spoken to this.

[hetron]

I'm not worried about it at all. What goes on in scandinavia doesn't affect me at all. I'm just giving you some reasons why voluntary taxation might not work well.

As for the small minority, do they get to not pay taxes but still enjoy all the benefits of the state they live in? that doesn't sound exactly fair.

[pleyya]

Actually the fact that most people support the policies make them legitimate. Thats the basics of democracy. As in the US we have elections and as in the US we have to adapt to the policies of the winning party. You pay taxes in the US aswell and i dont think you call it theft there neither is it in scandinavia. The tax is higher in scandinavia but obviously the money is redistributed into the society, healthcare, education

Im not saying everybody likes the system, cause there will never be a system that everybody likes, anywhere. Im not saying its perfect and im not saying that i dont think the taxes should be reduced just a little.

[pleyya]

The UN uses a more specified tool than GDP to show a countrys state

"The HDI – human development index – is a summary composite index that measures a country's average achievements in three basic aspects of human development: longevity, knowledge, and a decent standard of living. Longevity is measured by life expectancy at birth; knowledge is measured by a combination of the adult literacy rate and the combined primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrolment ratio; and standard of living by GDP per capita (PPP US$). "

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2...05_PKE_HDI.pdf

[tylerdurden]

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As for the small minority, do they get to not pay taxes but still enjoy all the benefits of the state they live in? that doesn't sound exactly fair.

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Of course not, that's the whole idea. When I suggested that they be "left alone" that's exactly what I meant.

And while we're talking about what's "fair" - what's fair about making me pay for stuff that I don't want?

[tylerdurden]

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Actually the fact that most people support the policies make them legitimate. Thats the basics of democracy.

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So, again, if your gang is big enough, lynching is legitimate?