Scandinavia - working socialist economies? - Page 7

hetron · #61 12-12-2005, 10:50 PM

A horrible example. Most wealthy folks in a scandinavian country could leave and go somewhere else, unlike a person on an island.

When are you ever going to get 100% agreement on anything? The suggestion that you need 100% agreement in order to have a certain type of government is preposterous.

Borodog · #62 12-12-2005, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The suggestion that you need 100% agreement in order to have a certain type of government is preposterous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

hetron · #63 12-12-2005, 10:59 PM

Probably because if it was voluntary people would look for excuses not to pay. Kind of like how people agree there should be a speed limit but frequently exceed it when they are in a rush and don't think anyone is looking. That doesn't mean that they disagree with the taxation.

Borodog · #64 12-12-2005, 11:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Probably because if it was voluntary people would look for excuses not to pay. Kind of like how people agree there should be a speed limit but frequently exceed it when they are in a rush and don't think anyone is looking. That doesn't mean that they disagree with the taxation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's pretty clear that they do. Your example shows that people don't really believe the answers they give to questions like these. They're just saying what they believe they're "supposed" to say.

hetron · #65 12-12-2005, 11:08 PM

No it doesn't. A lot of people believe in taxation, even if they don't like it. I don't like paying taxes. That doesn't mean I won't pay them, or that I don't see the utility behind taxation. And a lot of people feel the same way I do. Moreso probably in scandinavia then in the US. You just have a tough time imagining this is the truth for some reason.

Arnfinn Madsen · #66 12-12-2005, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's pretty clear that they do. Your example shows that people don't really believe the answers they give to questions like these. They're just saying what they believe they're "supposed" to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't believe it is that way. We had an election in September and the opposition promised before the election that if they got elected they would increase the taxes. They got elected.

Borodog · #67 12-12-2005, 11:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No it doesn't. A lot of people believe in taxation, even if they don't like it. I don't like paying taxes. That doesn't mean I won't pay them, or that I don't see the utility behind taxation. And a lot of people feel the same way I do. Moreso probably in scandinavia then in the US. You just have a tough time imagining this is the truth for some reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

"A lot of people" ? So again, why isn't it voluntary? Wouldn't you pay? So you say it's not voluntary because people wouldn't pay, so you need the police power of the state to force your social agenda, along with the rest of the "lot" on those who really don't agree with you, and would demonstrate that disagreement with your policies by not paying. Why can't you just call this what it is? Mob rule? Might makes right? Why even pretend that it's somehow morally justifiable?

hetron · #68 12-12-2005, 11:35 PM

A lot of people feel it is morally justifiable; they feel that providing for the social welfare is more important than people paying too much in taxes. It's a value judgment. If people don't agree with it, they can leave the country. Apparently, most people don't care enough to leave the country and go somewhere else, so they don't care too much about it.

tylerdurden · #69 12-13-2005, 12:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people feel it is morally justifiable; they feel that providing for the social welfare is more important than people paying too much in taxes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't they form voluntary cooperatives to provide this social welfare to those who want to participate in their system, then? Why the need to subjugate others into it? You keep avoiding this question. Yes, lots of people like it. That's great. Now what about those who don't?

[ QUOTE ]
If people don't agree with it, they can leave the country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, there it is. It's always just a matter of time before the "love it or leave it" argument comes up. There's a "social contract" that you've "tacitly consented" to, just by the misfortune of being born in an oppressive state, right?

If the government doesn't like my distate for their "social welfare" why don't they just go find someone else who DOES like it? Why are my property rights less important than some busybody's desire to do things with my money?

Does a kid "tacitly consent" to wedgies when he shows up at school, where he knows a bully also attends? Hey, if you don't like it, go to another school!

hetron · #70 12-13-2005, 12:31 AM

Methinks you complain too much. You keep comparing taxation to other types of oppression. Most people just don't see it as THAT oppressive. Most people in scandinavia probably think property rights are important, but that social welfare is more important. If you see it as oppression, you and your ilk would certainly be in the minority in scandinavia.