What do you do with this draw?

[Soh]

Hello Jonatahn,

The way I look at this is...
One good thing about 22 is that once you miss the flop, you can let it go, and save your chips. But if you make a set, you could collect a lot of chips.

However with KQ, you can hit a few more draws, so it could cost you a lot of chips when you don't make it, like it did with this hand. Also when K or Q comes on the flop, you don't want to fold too easily, yet you might be facing AK or AQ. In that case, basically you only have 3 outs.

By the way, S&M hand ranking is an excellent guide line when you're playing limit hold'em ring game but need more than a few adjustments when you're playing no-limit hold'em tournament.

Soh

[DrPhysic]

1. This is a personal preference backed by much reading (Brunson, et al), and much loss of $ before I figured it out.
2. Go to www.twodimes.net and run any of the three hands I mentioned against KQo on the pokenum holdem hand calculator.
3. 22 isn't much of a hand. I used it to make the point of how bad KQo really is.
4. When I said wait for a decent hand like... I picked three of the lousiest hands I could think of that were playable on a full table to make the point. Obviously, you can't spend your life waiting for AA to play a hand. There are a lot better hands out there than the ones I mentioned. Any mid to large pair, any suited connectors of reasonable size, pref pictures, any suited pictures, etc.
5. You keep betting KQo on a regular basis, and I'll keep folding it, and we'll see who has the money in the long term.

Comments DO NOT apply when playing on short table or heads up.

And yes there is a big difference between limit and NL. Sklansky's limit hand groupings simply do not apply in NL. Pairs and high cards play much more effectively in NL than is indicated in the limit hand groupings. IE: Axs and Kxs are groups 5 and 7 in the limit hand groupings if I remember right. They play MUCH higher in NL.

edit: Read "Borderline or Trouble Hands" pp505 in SuperSystem. Also file for reference that most of the HE books in print are about limit holdem. Read the NLHE section of SuperSystem. (I will be reading Ruben & Ciaffone's PL & NL Poker next.)

GL

Doc [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

People are almost universally advocating folding to a min raise in the BB with KQo. Now, if the min-raiser had always been making 'normal' raises I might agree, since this now looks like a monster. However, if the player was a habitual min-raiser there is no way I lay this down.

I agree in part. In the BB with any two connected cards (well, maybe not 32o), I'm calling a min-raise if it's folded to me, *especially* if I think the min-raise means a big pair and I have the raiser significantly outchipped. The reason being that in that scenario, it's easy to outplay the raiser.

In this case 1) If the min-raise isn't a big pair will he bet if he misses the flop? 2) If it is a big pair, will he underbet this flop to continue trying to trap you if you check?

Against many players I've seen lately, I'd be tempted to bet 1200 on this flop, which basically commits all his chips if he plays. The combination of the chance he'll fold plus the fact that I'll have pot odds to call if he pushes in makes this look like a good time to play aggressively.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Wait for a decent hand like 22, or Axs

Sorry, Doc, but I disagree. In fact, these look like precisely the kind of hands I don't want to call preflop and then play post-flop heads-up against a min-raiser.

What I want in this situation is a disguised hand that, when the flop hits me, I can be confident that it missed the raiser.

[DrPhysic]

A couple of additional thoughts on KQo:
1) I didn't say you ALWAYS throw it in. I said you ALWAYS throw it in after a previous raise. (or maybe even a limp).
2) In late position, it plays better. If you have KQo in CO or button, all fold to you, throw 2 or 3 bb on the table, steal the blinds and go away happy. If you get called, you still have a decent drawing hand. But don't forget it is a drawing hand, you have to catch a good piece of the flop to win with it.
3) With only 1 or 2 others left on the table, it does play just as good as it looks. I'd kill for a KQo in a lot of HU situations, and often have to play hands a lot worse.

Doc

[sdplayerb]

I think I would actually rather have 22 here, than KQ.
With a minraise I am getting implied odds since I am half-in. If I hit, I know I have it won. If not, I am done.
With KQ, if I hit, I really don't know for sure where I am at and he will only call if he has you beat.
I would not play Ax here though.

I really like having pocket pairs when there is a min-raise. If the chips are deep (which they are not here) I also like small suited connectors.

[DrPhysic]

sdplayerb,

I sort of agree with you about the Ax. I like Axs in almost any situation that is not going to get raised 3-4bb or more. If i can see a flop w Axs fairly cheap, I like it, because you can often take the pot on the flop if you hit the A or occaisionally the xx trip, and fold it cheap if you don't hit.

I will play Ax, (or Kxs) even though it is considered a trash hand, against a loose passive, or loose agressive player. I don't play it, or probably Axs either, against a tight passive, or especially a tight agressive player or game.

Depends on who's in the game and who has still to bet. Ie: I'll try it with Cris ahead of me and a 1bb bet, but not with Cris behind me.

Doc

[Jonathan]

By the way, S&M hand ranking is an excellent guide line when you're playing limit hold'em ring game but need more than a few adjustments when you're playing no-limit hold'em tournament.

Soh

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but what adjustments? Where can I find these adjustments described?

Thanks to all for your input.

Jonathan

[sdplayerb]

I definitely agree you have to play the players.
So the beginning to all answers is: it depends.

[DrPhysic]

That's why all the books are about limit. It is more dependent on the cards and less on the players.

In NL, IT DEPENDS....

Doc