5/10: QJ gets in big pot, rivers trips, gets donked

[RunDownHouse]

Reads: BB pf 3bettor has TAGgy stats. Button is pretty much unknown, haven't seen him be realy aggressive. SB is pretty much unknown except for a couple previous hands. One in particular SB open-limped AA in the hijack, checked behind on the blank flop heads-up with a blind, just called a turn bet, and then raised the river.

This is another hand I was coached on by Krishan, and he didn't like the flop bet or the river call. Have at and I'll chime in with my reasoning later.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (12 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 15 BB

[imported_leader]

Why are you betting the flop? I think the river is a raise/call.

[ArturiusX]

I don't like the flop bet. Getting c/r sucks.

[POKhER]

Any FLOP FOLD %'s? Any PT stats at all mate?

Not sure if theres value or any chance of folding anyone with the flop bet. Infact i think it bloats the pot a tad and gives them a easier +EV call later on with gutshots or 1pair or overcards etc.

Check the flop and the rest looks good.

I'm struggling to put SB on a range, is he scared of FH and betting a made flush draw? if he just a total moron? WTF donks there when they can C/R?

is buttons potential OVERCALL better than SB/BB's call/Potential re-raise? I think i'm happy with 1extra BB from button than 2BB's from SB/BB after raising because getting 3bet sucks.

Also his donk confused me.

[SparkyDog]

RunDownHouse,

Weird hand. I can't think of a hand that I like BB's play for.

The flop bet is good if it will clear out gutshots that will be made by you spiking a pair (JT, QT) or hands that have you reverse dominated. In a pot this large, I don't think it will, but it's not terrible to throw a bet out there and see what happens. Another possible benefit would be to fold out button, giving you position for the rest of the hand. Worst case scenario is that BB checkraises, indicating a very strong draw or a monster like KK. But I don't think he'll do this very often as it would be pretty optimistic of him for you or button to bet this flop often enough to justify going for the C/R. SB is more likely to checkraise as he expects BB to bet the flop, but from your description he doesn't seem to be the type to pull this move very often. Lastly, if Button raises your bet, it's not an absolute disaster as it will knock out the aforementioned hands, especially if he will do this with flush draws (so your pair outs are live) or with 2nd pair. However, from your description of him he doesn't seem likely to do these either, and a raise is a remote possibility, and furthermore, would likely clarify the situation and allow you to check/fold the turn unimproved.

I don't really like a raise on the river. Looks like a win one lose two situation to me.

[milesdyson]

yeah your flop bet is nasty.

i agree with others that the river is a raise. there is no way BB has a hand that beats you, and you may split or beat SB's QJ/QT/retarded K.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop bet is good if it will clear out gutshots that will be made by you spiking a pair (JT, QT) or hands that have you reverse dominated. In a pot this large, I don't think it will, but it's not terrible to throw a bet out there and see what happens. Another possible benefit would be to fold out button, giving you position for the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was really hoping to fold out button, mostly. There's a decent number of hands he'll coldcall pf and not like the flop, mainly PPs with some suited aces and connectors thrown in. Also, if he's passive, there's a small chance that, even if he calls, I can get him to check behind on the river, if something like the 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] comes. Its pretty questionable, which is why Krishan questioned it.

There's also the issue of how much I really care about seeing the river. I've got 4 dirty outs, and that's about it. I don't really care about a c/r from BB, because that means I'm done with the hand after seeing a non-T turn. It costs one BB extra, but at the time I thought getting the button would be very important.

[Peter Harris]

i think the flop bet is thin if you're trying to buy the button.

This river is a raise/call, not a flat call.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]


This river is a raise/call, not a flat call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I suck on the river, and I'll admit it to all and sundry, but with the read on sb do you raise and call a 3bet here? It looks to me like he bet this because he was afraid it was going to get checked through.

[Peter Harris]

SB could be betting the scare, have Q-weak kicker (QJ, QT, Q8s if pernickity about hand selection in SB, although the latter is an unlikely flop peeler) or just be a f**kwit. I like raising the river, then swearing and calling the 3bet.