Not thrilled with my JJ on QQ flop

MicroBob · #1 12-10-2005, 06:50 AM

Okay, I didn't play this so wonderfully as I certainly should have raised the flop I think. But TAG's capping at me PF scare me I guess.

The button is pretty solid, 32/25/2.4
We've been playing 4 or 5 handed some of the time so his stats really aren't out of line. I haven't seen him make any decisions that struck me as incorrect. Possible 2+2'er imo. Certainly identifies me as a TAG too.

UTG is kind of an idiot....42/21/1.7
He had a stellar PF limp-reraise on me with A7o earlier.

5-handed 3/6

Hero has J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in CO

UTG raises, Hero re-raises, Button caps, SB and BB fold, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop (3 players): 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG bets, Hero calls, Button raises, UTG calls, Hero calls

Turn: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG checks, Hero checks, Button calls, UTG calls, Hero.....
(wants to fold because he's probably beat....but wants to call down 'just in case')

spydog · #2 12-10-2005, 07:00 AM

Flop: Raise. Button will have to fold AK here. If he 3-bets then fold if UTG caps or call if UTG calls and try and spike your J on the turn.

Turn: I donk. Button will never (did I say never?) raise you on this turn without a better hand and may check thru AK. Since you checked you must call the turn/river.

noir · #3 12-10-2005, 07:47 AM

I'm guessing that your stats on the TAG are from this session only based on your writings. This would factor into my read, as would previous action at the table.

You have a line on him, and you think you know his line on you, so (and this is where previous hands could come into play) he may very well read your threebet as an isolation attempt and/or have a hand that is ahead of your threebetting range. And we don't call three cold much these days, do we? Folding isn't fashionable either.

If I had a long history with him and knew he was multitabling heavily, then I'd narrow things more, but perhaps he's deliberately putting you in a sticky spot.

So raise the flop and go from there.

And if any of these speculations are accurate, take note.

Peter Harris · #4 12-10-2005, 08:17 AM

i 3bet the flop and donk the turn, as only a Q, 88, 33, KK or AA will raise here; I don't make villain for 33/88, and even KK/AA may call down for fear of the queen.

3bet flop, bet-fold turn, if turn is just called, bet-fold a non K/A river.

mad?

POKhER · #5 12-10-2005, 09:30 AM

Raise the flop, Calling is horrible. Raise>Fold>Call Or maybe even Fold>Raise>call if you're feeling a bit weak tight [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Depending on the action on the other streets its tough to say as to many varibles.

If we get raised we can probably C/f it. If we get called i'll donk the turn and probably fold to a raise also.

So pretty much any raises and im usually folding it.

me454555 · #6 12-10-2005, 01:18 PM

I think the flop is raise or fold. Villain either has 6 clean outs or he's got your crushed. Whichever the scenerio calling isn't correct. I'd prolly toss it when utg bets b/c i'm too worried about button raising it behind me and I definatly don't want to pay 2 to see the turn. On top of that there is the possibility that utg has a huge hand that he didn't get to cap pf or has a Q and you're crushed. Theres also the buttons hand to conisder and his likely range of hands leave you very often behind.

yellowjack · #7 12-10-2005, 02:31 PM

The flop needs to be raised here, as others have stated. After he 3-bets, peel and try to catch a jack. If button calls we bet/fold the turn & river to him.

MicroBob · #8 12-10-2005, 03:38 PM

As it stood..we'll never get to know how he would have reacted if I had properly raised the flop.

I folded the turn after putting myself in this dumb situation because I figured I was crushed.

As it happened...I had zero outs and so did the button...
because he had JJ also.
UTG mucked after check/calling the river (it wasn't on Party so I couldn't look up what he had) and the button's JJ was good.

Thanks for input guys.
Obviously my game needs more than just a little work in some places.

me454555 · #9 12-10-2005, 06:36 PM

So the fact that villain is a tag capping pf, utg betting into you, and the pf capper still to act behind you doesn't do anything to make you think you might be behind?

Raising is just not correct IMO b/c you're counting on a parlay of 1) TAGGY button has AK and 2) UTG doesn't have a hand that beats you like any Q, KK, AA. UTG could have been planning to cap pf but didnt get the chance. Button could easily have AA or KK. Even AQs is a possibility for a guy w/those stats. I just don't think you're ahead often enough to make raising here the correct play