2-4 limit 10-10, river line?

ANY2CARDZ · #1 11-12-2005, 04:56 PM

Sb is 45/11/0 over 14 hands, mp3 is 46/7/1.31/over 50 hands
On the flop after mp3 raised I was going to 3 bet, but didnt like seeing the SB comming out of the bush and 3 betting that flop.
What do you think?

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero??

#2 11-12-2005, 05:01 PM

I wouldn't have gotten to the river myself. The flop three bet screams set to me. What else could he have besides a diamond draw he's decided to pump. Call the river.

#3 11-12-2005, 10:31 PM

The flop check/3-bet is very intimidating in my opinion. It's likely SB has a very big made hand or a very strong draw (either a flush draw or OESD, or possibly a combination of both). For this reason, I like raising the turn and taking a free showdown, should the opportunity arise. This way we can charge draws, fold out any overs MP3 may be holding, and fold too any further aggression. It's likely we have less than 2 outs when behind, and thus folding is relatively safe.

The problem with this, though, is MP3 is behind us, and this will likely foil our free showdown play. Though, given the hand range I still like raising the turn.

sweetjazz · #4 11-12-2005, 10:57 PM

This is a tough hand to play. Especially given that we don't have much of a read on SB.

If you continue on past the flop, then you must either cap the flop or raise the turn. At first glance, raising the turn seems best. You should fold to a 3-bet on the turn if MP3 cold-calls your raise, but you might want to call the turn if MP3 folds and SB 3-bets. There is a high likelihood you are against two pair (although set or straight is also possible) and thus should call on the river if the board pairs or you hit your set (possibly raise the set).

It may turn out that folding the flop would have been best (depending on what you later learn about SB). But I think that is too weak against an unknown.

Borodog · #5 11-13-2005, 12:26 AM

Raise/fold the turn. I do not like capping the flop because you may just be pumping someone else's draw for them.

sweetjazz · #6 11-13-2005, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise/fold the turn. I do not like capping the flop because you may just be pumping someone else's draw for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

While you may be right about not capping the flop, the reason give does not make sense (without more elaboration). Any time there is ramming and jamming on the flop in a multiway pot, the principal beneficiaries are the big draw(s) and the hand that is best now. The hand that is best now may have the other made hands drawing near dead (e.g. a flopped set) or may have other made hands drawing weak but live (e.g. TT in this hand). I include two overcards as a made hand (though it's just A high or K high or whatever; made hand might better be called not-a-big-draw hand in this post).

We are getting good equity if we cap the flop, assuming TT is the best hand.

The reason not to cap the flop is that we can get even better equity on the turn if we raise a blank, and we might not want to raise if a scary card (e.g. A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) comes, since our equity could be completely shot at this point.

The decision to cap the flop or not depends largely on whether we can get our villain to fold overcards in this spot. If he won't fold overcards, we're best waiting for a blank turn so we can put more pressure on him to fold and/or have him invest more money into the pot to go for his weak draw.

Whether or not we are helping the SB by pumping his draw is completely irrelevant. The goal in poker is to do what is in our best interest, and if our interest happens to coincide with that of the SB (at the expense of MP1), then that's just coolbeans.

Anyway, you may have known this / had this in mind, but I thought it worthwhile to point out. This is something that's important to understand, imho.

Nick C · #7 11-13-2005, 02:44 AM

Distasteful though it is, I think folding the flop when it's two more back to you is a serious option. The thing is, though, we don't know whether SB planned a normal checkraise (with, say, top pair) and decided to go ahead and check/3-bet when MP3 interfered or whether he's ecstatic about all the action he's getting. (Probably he's ecstatic, though.)

What I would probably do is cap the flop, sort of as one last attempt to drive MP3 out of the hand.

There's a really good chance SB has a set or a straight, though. Two pair is also possible, and so is a big draw, but one problem is that MP3 could be cutting into your outs versus two pair (a combination of 54 for SB and top pair for MP3 is not at all out of the question), and another problem is that if SB has a huge draw, you're not even necessarily a favorite over that draw on the flop.

I know taking a raise-fold line on the turn has been suggested, but doing so does have its drawbacks. (I think that when SB has a hand like 54 that you have decent outs against in a pot of this size, you'll often get 3-bet by that 54, on this board.) So I think I'd rather cap the flop and then slow down if SB leads the turn (but, of course, he could go for a checkraise instead).

I think the line you actually took is all right, really. And I would probably pay off on the river. Occasionally SB will have a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the river that he's taking one last desperation stab with, and there's a good chance you have MP3 beat.

BoxLiquid · #8 11-13-2005, 02:48 AM

I would fold river. SB has the 76.

He seems to not care about your UTG raise and whether or not you have AA or KK.

adios · #9 11-13-2005, 03:09 AM

When in this hand have you represented an overpair instead of overcards? FWIW you're in ticklish spot here but I raise the turn and see how it develops from there. At least you've represented an overpair and if you get 3 bet you know you're up against a better hand IMO FWIW.

MCS · #10 11-13-2005, 04:33 AM

In general, I hate the raise/fold turn line. It has the potential to knock you off a hand with outs when you could have seen the river, though in this case it would be nice if you could knock MP3 off of overcards. So I do think it has some merit here, though I would probably still just call because I think if MP3 raises and SB 3-bets you can fold, or maybe you could even fold to just the raise.

I might fold the flop. If not then I think you've pretty much decided to go to the river. I guess MP3 could have 87 or 86, and that would suck. I think the river is close so just do whatever you feel like. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]