If I thought I was wrong,

[imported_luckyme]

I'd change my mind.

..a breakaway to a lighter topic.

Bearly asked about my sig in another thread

[ QUOTE ]
lucky, what if you thought you 'were' wrong....?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ignoring the "should this be subjunctive" take on the question, I started using that sig when somebody said, "Oh, that hortense, he always thinks he's right."
I replied, "of course, if he thought he was wrong he'd change his mind."

Each person at every second of his waking day thinks he is right in any thought he is having. It's not something we control, we keep a running tally at some deep level and it is impossible to grab hold of a thought that you think is wrong. We're a self-correcting system,

luckyme,
if I thought I was wrong, I'd change my mind

[bearly]

ok, forget the poor grammer. concerning the last paragraph of your post: i can't think of any level or context (maybe w/ aristotle in a personal conversation) where virtually every fragment is other than complete nonsense. have you ever tried this out on a critical audience? were you able to make yourself understood? this is a crusher. i'm speechless, so will shut up......................b

[imported_luckyme]

excellent point, well, perhaps with the exception of the grammer. The formal subjunctive 'were' would be inconsistant with my colloquial "go fer it" and " I'spose".

[ QUOTE ]
have you ever tried this out on a critical audience?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's only a second level claim, Aristotle is not available, and, yes, others often get confused into thinking it refers to whether their thoughts are true rather than whether they believe them to be true. Most seem to grasp it when I say, "Phone me the moment you have a thought you believe is wrong at the time you have it ( not when you later think you were mistaken)."

I haven't used it as a sig before but it seemed fitting in a forum that discusses belief since it is a related experience. It flows right into the concept that we don't have any choice in what we believe ( however true that concept is).

luckyme,
if I thought I was wrong, I'd change my mind

[bearly]

hi, i'll try again in the venacular. i have no idea what you are trying to say. let's try a few things out: thoughts are wrong? thoughts are like premises and can be logically thought of as right or wrong. a thought of your children is right or wrong? are you using 'right' to mean other than 'correct'? are you simply mis-stating the old "feeling-toned" concept of the 1950-60's? who are the people who grasp what you say on this subject? they seem to have their thoughts somehow 'embedded in rightness'? they never have thoughts while at the same time feeling unsure about them? (from what i see of the late-teen early twenty- somethings in my neighborhood this may be true)? do you know why i used aristotle as an example? it won't be the end of the world if i don't grasp what you mean, but it will sure make me wonder what those who 'profess' have been feeding the minds entrusted to them. or, what the young beings have been feeding their own minds.........oowah..................b

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd change my mind.

..a breakaway to a lighter topic.

Bearly asked about my sig in another thread

[ QUOTE ]
lucky, what if you thought you 'were' wrong....?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ignoring the "should this be subjunctive" take on the question, I started using that sig when somebody said, "Oh, that hortense, he always thinks he's right."
I replied, "of course, if he thought he was wrong he'd change his mind."

Each person at every second of his waking day thinks he is right in any thought he is having. It's not something we control, we keep a running tally at some deep level and it is impossible to grab hold of a thought that you think is wrong. We're a self-correcting system,

luckyme,
if I thought I was wrong, I'd change my mind

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm always right when I'm not sure whether I'm right. And I'm not sure that I'm right often.

There does seem to be a large portion of people that don't believe admitting they are wrong is acceptable. Even when someone has proven it to them.

[imported_luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
they never have thoughts while at the same time feeling unsure about them?

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s it ! Thanks.

It’s not that they never have thoughts without a judgement about the level of certainty. It’s that the level of certainty ( since it does occur “at the same time” ) is part of the thought. We often sever it when we talk about it, but we can’t when we’re actually thinking it.

I’ll give a very simple example.
“What’s the capital of South Africa?”
“uhhhm, I’m pretty sure it’s Capetown.”

It’s not “capetown’ that we’re certain of,
it’s the thought “ pretty sure it’s Capetown”.

I would have just shot you a quick subjunctive comment when you first raised the issue but this way of looking at a persons thoughts seems to have some relevance to poker and to DS’s request that religious people separate their certainty of their belief from the evidence for it. I have some Fermat level notes on those topics that I will …
… or maybe I won’t..

thanks for taking the time to try to understand my ramblings.

[chezlaw]

I think in terms of belief and am wondering if thought are different in any important way.

I view beliefs as either existing or not and they do not have degress of strength. In your example:

'I have a strong believe that Capetown is the capital of SA'
is better expressed as
'I believe it is highly likely that capetown is the capital of SA'

If another belief leads to a loss of confidence then that old belief is modified to

'I believe it is possible that capetown is the capital of SA'

So, like you say for thoughts, you cannot be unsure about your beliefs at the time you are holding them. Are we talking about the same thing?

chez

[imported_luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
So, like you say for thoughts, you cannot be unsure about your beliefs at the time you are holding them. Are we talking about the same thing?


[/ QUOTE ]

It seems so. I prefer the way you phrase it and the concept seems more understandable in that form. thanks.

If I wake up screaming in the night, "WHat have I agreed to !!?? " I'll recant.