Two hands from the book MidLimitHP

[JackWilson]

Ok, almost halfway through the book and there have been a couple of hands where I disagreed at least partially with the advice given by the authors. I'd like to hear some opinions on the following two hands:

Page 168 Problem 21
A $15-$30 game. You are in the big blind with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and get a free play after an EP, two MPs, the CO and the SB limp. The flop is Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. You bet, and get called by both MPs and the CO. The turn is T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. What do you do?

Page 171 Problem 27
A $20-$40 game. You are in the big blind with the 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. There is a call UTG and calls from a MP, Button and SB. The flop comes 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The SB bets, you raise and UTG reraises. Everyone, including the SB folds round to you, and you cap. The turn is 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. What do you do?

BTW, didn't really know where to post this but SS seemed fine.

[mr pink]

hand 1 - i think i check/call w/outs into 3 players, that T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] completes a lot of draws.

hand 2 - i guess they're assuming your top 2 just got counterfeited but utg's overpair so you should again check/call.



some reads would be nice, as it could make each decision go either way.

[JackWilson]

1) I think you need to bet this. My reasoning - if your hand is good right now you desperately need to protect it against the numerous draws that are out there now. If you get raised you can fold. You're not getting pot odds to draw with a check/call here.

2) Sure, that certainly looks like your hand just got busted by an overpair. Now wouldn't it be correct to check/fold? There are precious few hands that you could be good against right here given the flop reraise. Their advice is to bet.

What I also don't get is the apparent contradiction between the two examples.

No reads unfortunately.

[mr pink]

yeah my reply for hand 1 sucks ass. bet the fucker.

[mr pink]

i think that book also assumes your opponents play reasonably well postflop, unlike the games on party. i think they're reasoning is that they wouldn't have called the flop bet without some kind of draw and not ace high.

[JackWilson]

Any other comments?

[me454555]

Hand 1: I check here w/the intenstion of check raiseing a late position bettor if he's aggro or calling an ep bettor. The last MP and CO are unlikely to have a flush draw b/c they would have raised the flop for value and a free card. The 1 mp could have the flush draw so checking for info is the definatly the right play.

Hand 2: My read on UTG is that he's got either an overpair likely 99/TT or Ax [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I bet the turn here b/c I don't want to give a free card. If I get raised, I'm getting 10:1 on my call and I can probobly c/r the river for an extra 2 bets if I catch a 7 or 8. If I don't catch a 7 or 8 I check fold the river.

[Harv72b]

Regarding hand 2...20/40 is admittedly well above my level of experience, but is it really likely that a player will limp 99/TT from UTG?

The advice in my (I'm obligated to include Jim Brier's name as well, even though his contributes to the book consisted of choosing the hand to put on the cover) book, Middle Limit Holdem Poker, is often debated, debated by inexperienced and unknowledgeable players such as yourself who have been taught by the new wave of maniacal online poker players to close your eyes and bet and raise until the hand is over. Well, I have news for you. Poker is not all betting and raising at will. Top pair does not automatically mean you have to bet. This is a prime example. You simply cannot be ahead after being called in three spots. Anyone who thinks so might as well quit playing right now. I teach my students to analyze the situation deeper than looking at the biggest card on board and betting if they have a hole card that matches.

Now all of a sudden you read this other hand and think you should be checking. You are one confused gentleman or lady. If your opponent has an overpair, he is unlikely to raise you again, but will bet if you check. If he only has top pair or a draw, then he might check if you check. This is a trivially easy bet, and should be for even the rankest of novices.

Coach

As I stated earlier, the advice in my book is often debated. However, after many years of successful poker playing, I can assure you that I'm right and everyone who disagrees with me is unequivocally wrong. It amazes me how people fail to understand my teachings despite my track record.

For the first hand, how likely is it you're up against a better hand? In case you're mentally challenged, I'll tell you. It's almost a certainty! You speak of checking and calling, but what about checking and folding? That is quite obviously the only reasonable option left. You tested your hand, and it failed the test. It's time to land in the muck. In case you didn't get the memo, it's ok to fold top pair!

For the second hand, you suggest the player check and fold. What?! Check and fold with top two pair? What type of bull honkey is this? Not only do you have a 4 out redraw against the only hands that beat you (nines, and perhaps tens. Most players at this level would come in for a raise with two jacks.), but there are a myriad of draws, and top pair with the top kicker is also possible.

In the future, please think before you challenge my writings. Thank you.

Coach