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  #11  
Old 08-13-2005, 12:52 PM
DrPublo DrPublo is offline
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Well, I don't think villain saw that the turn paired the board.

Villain instantly called with T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for 3 pair and MHING. I'm not convinced the play is bad however.

The Doc
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  #12  
Old 08-13-2005, 01:32 PM
imported_anacardo imported_anacardo is offline
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Default Re: Results

Three pair. A hand that people just can't seem to let go of, despite it never being quite as good as it looks. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
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  #13  
Old 08-13-2005, 01:51 PM
DWarrior DWarrior is offline
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Default Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two

People represent at $50 NL :O That guy didn't look capable of representing anything.

That being said, would trip-jacks min-raise the river?

EDIT: not in general, just at these T/W stakes.
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  #14  
Old 08-13-2005, 02:54 PM
BobboFitos BobboFitos is offline
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Default Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet the turn it's too easy for villain to c/r with just a flush draw or straight draw trying to represent a J (and has plenty of outs if I stick around).

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

if villain is good enough to do this, give the man the pot. i think AK is good, and when you're c/r, you're not. pot it on the turn.

BTW, your river raise represents exactly JT, JJ, or TT, which I dont know if you'd play it like that, but how it looks. Problem is villain is getting like 4:1 on a call; may be too stupid to see what you're representing; and will never fold trips here. (Or obviously a boat)

Aj, (any jack), probably an overpair, etc. (whatever you're betting on the button pf with) would bet this turn so either you're afraid of top pair pairing or you've boated up.

If he folds I think ace high was good anyway. Too narrow a range (Ten, 3, or mid pp) that you want to fold out w/ your raise. He prolly will look you up anyway just because raising the river is peculiar. (Just read results, really doesn't surprise me)

Anyway... when you have ace high (earlier question) on a draw heavy board, you're not really looking to get to showdown cheaply. (like a big pocket pair MAY do, although shorthanded I'd still bet this turn because a flop call could be so many things not just top pair) So you dont care if you're checkraised. If you are you're folding 4 outs to a straight on a paired board. With top pair pairing your over outs may not be good. You could be drawing dead now.

Anycase, a bet on the turn is for protection, you likely have the best hand, if you're checkraised it's time to reevaluate, and normally I decide I'm no good. Problem is when he calls and a blank hits and he bluffs... Do you pick him off with ace high?
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  #15  
Old 08-13-2005, 05:38 PM
DrPublo DrPublo is offline
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Default Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, your river raise represents exactly JT, JJ, or TT

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it represents a much wider range than that.

Off the top, if I do boat on the turn I probably bet small enough to keep a flush or straight draw around. I definitely don't check.

Secondly, let's say I make trips on the turn and I know he has a flush draw (or straight draw, doesn't really matter for the purposes of this example). I'm still vulnerable against either draw, and thus I need to bet, and most draws fold for a 1/2-pot bet or so on the turn. And so I make nothing. But I also know if I check the turn he will put me on unpaired overs and bluff the river a large percentage of the time even if he misses. Then it becomes correct to sometimes check trips because I can make more on the river. And if he hits his draw at the same time that I fill I can make even more.

If this analysis is true then I can play a missed AK (or any hand with outs) in largely the same way, except rather than _snapping off_ his river bluffs with trips (or even one pair type hands), I can raise his river bet whether I hit or not. I can use optimal bluffing strategy (straight out of ToP) to make this river raise enough of the time that the villain can never call profitably.

Of course the villain in this hand doesn't know any of this and looked me up with three pair. C'est la vie.

The Doc
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