Hard QQ preflop

[energyjoe]

I'd like to get some serious comments on this hand. Pot odds are tremendous, but are they enough? I hadn't got any read about my opponents when I made this play. I guess nisson82's most probable hands are AA & KK, but I'm not very sure how probable.

Party's NL 6 max 25$ buy-in

Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: JaredsGod ( $39.55 )
Seat 5: Hero ( $29.93 )
Seat 6: falconie ( $19.50 )
Seat 1: ROGUE1111 ( $28.55 )
Seat 2: nisson82 ( $17.90 )
Seat 4: DocOdds ( $9.60 )
Hero posts small blind [$0.10].
falconie posts big blind [$0.25].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Qc Qs ]
ROGUE1111 folds.
nisson82 raises [$0.50].
JaredsGod calls [$0.50].
DocOdds raises [$3].
Hero raises [$8.90].
falconie folds.
nisson82 is all-In.
JaredsGod folds.
DocOdds is all-In.
Hero calls [$8.90].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, Ah, Tc ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]

Hero shows [ Qc, Qs ] two pairs, queens and sevens.
nisson82 shows [ Ac, Ad ] a full house, Aces full of sevens.
DocOdds doesn't show [ 9h, 9d ] two pairs, nines and sevens.
nisson82 wins $16.05 from side pot #1 with a full house, Aces full of sevens.
nisson82 wins $28.10 from the main pot with a full house, Aces full of sevens.

[alphatmw]

i had this exact situation today, i folded and he showed aces.

The last time I played PP NL $25, maybe two weeks ago, I saw a guy push with Q7s and an hour later J9o pushed. I'm not sure at $25 NL, without a read, you can put a guy on anything when he pushes before the flop. Plenty of "it's only $25, I'm gonna bluff," players there who like the action more than the money.

Without a read, when I have come in for a standard 4bb + what's on the table raise, I fold to these pushes as a matter of routine unless I am the one holding AA or KK. I know sometimes I am folding the best hand, but there's just no way to tell unless you have a read.

You were much more heavily invested, though. I think I would have folded, but, then again, in for as much as you were, I might very well call while saying a heartfelt prayer to the all merciful poker gods for a queen to come on the board. Tough decision. But if I called, I'd be calling thinking I was likely beat.

What makes me think you are beat is the way the betting in this hand went: Nisson initially raised 1bb, Doc reraised, you reraised and then when it came back around to nisson, he reraised all-in. There are two reasons alarms would be going off in my head at that point. Nisson's play, 1bb raise, reraise all in when it comes back around to you having been reraised behind you, is a textbook semi-slow play of AA advocated as a good play by at least two very popular poker books I have read. So when I see this play, warning lights flash and alarm bells sound. The second reason is that Doc had raised the pot, so you had to credit him with a strong hand, too. When you were debating calling the all-in, you should have assigned a high probability to EITHER Doc or Nisson having you beat. Whether the math justifies calling anyway is a question for people smarter than me.

[meleader2]

an all in preflop is still an allin. you'd definetly have to think AA, KK or AK. if AK lucky you, but in all honesty do u think you can call an all in with QQ here?

your reraise preflop doesn't have to commit you, but that's a lot of money to be raising off of 3$. y not just call then go from there? you can probe and see if he has the AK, if not then lay it down.

[spahk]

if you knew exactly what everyone had, it would be close. any doubt at all, and it is an easy call. don't worry too much about it.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1114468
pokenum -h qc qs - ac ad - 9h 9d
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Qc 244331 17.82 1122538 81.89 3885 0.28 0.179
Ac Ad 901536 65.77 465333 33.95 3885 0.28 0.659
9d 9h 221002 16.12 1145867 83.59 3885 0.28 0.162

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Qc Qs ]
ROGUE1111 folds.
nisson82 raises [$0.50].
JaredsGod calls [$0.50].
DocOdds raises [$3].
Hero

[/ QUOTE ]

fold here. what hand does a normal player threebet hard that you have beat?

fim

[Monty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Qc Qs ]
ROGUE1111 folds.
nisson82 raises [$0.50].
JaredsGod calls [$0.50].
DocOdds raises [$3].
Hero

[/ QUOTE ]

fold here. what hand does a normal player threebet hard that you have beat?

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently 99.

I think the only thing that makes this so difficult is that they are both so short stacked and the pot has gotten so big. It's only costing hero less than 9 to try to win a $44 pot. At this level, I can easily see two people pushing with somehting like J-J, 10-10, or 9-9 and the other guy having A-K. Although I do think most the time you're up against K-K or A-A.

It's a though decision because the amount you have to call versus the size of the pot. I guess, I would say that that's where you went wrong. You have to keep this pot small. I would just call the PF raise and see what happens on the flop. By raising to 8, you're getting too involved too quickly with a vulnerable hand agisnst two short stacks. If you just call the 3 and than the first guy goes all in and the other calls, it's pretty easy fold, since you now have to call 14 more and not just 9. I think your initial PF raise that put you in this tough spot so that's what you should focus on.

[Komodo]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
if you knew exactly what everyone had, it would be close. any doubt at all, and it is an easy call. don't worry too much about it.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1114468
pokenum -h qc qs - ac ad - 9h 9d
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Qc 244331 17.82 1122538 81.89 3885 0.28 0.179
Ac Ad 901536 65.77 465333 33.95 3885 0.28 0.659
9d 9h 221002 16.12 1145867 83.59 3885 0.28 0.162

[/ QUOTE ]

How much does he need to break even?

[lange101]

I don't see how this is a good call? The hero is putting 10 into a 44 dollar pot. If he is heads up this is a good call and an easy one especially preflop. But against two players you need much higher pot odds for this to be the correct call in my opinion. This is if you don't know for sure what they both have. If one has AA, and the other has AQ, you are a massive underdog. If you can't put either on AA or KK (which I think is pretty easy to do in this situation) then call. If you can, then it is a marginal call at the very best.

At such small limits though it would not be hard for me to put players on some really weak hands so I might call thinking that I'm ahead. Meh, tough hand. I hate QQ.