VPIP < 20 ?

[NoTalent]

My current VPIP is around 22 for about 5k hands at 2/4 full ring (I know, I know small sample size).

Many of the winning players in my PT database have VPIP &lt; 20 (some even as low as 15). By following Kreiger's advice in Holdem Excellence you would likely have around 25 using his chart.

What hands should I throw away? I've noticed that ATo and KJo are losing for me right now. Any advice from the TAG players?

Regards,
NoTalent

[BottlesOf]

1. 5K hands is literally nothing.

2. Your VPIP should probably be a little lower so forget about 25.

3. Don't obsess about what hands you're winning with/not winning with (see no. 1)

4. Get SSH

[ThrillFactor]

You must have above average post-flop skills to play ATo and KJo from early or mid-position profitably. I don't, so I'll only play ATo from late-mid position or after against at most one limper. Others here could probably play it more, but not me. KJo I only play from CO or CO-1 if folded to me. I'll play it from the button vs. a couple of limpers, but I'm ready to release against any real aggression.

My V$IP numbers after a whole boat-load of hands are:

.5/1 19.xx%
1/2 18.xx%
2/4 17.xx%

I'm killing all three levels.

[doughhater]

This is the second thread that I've seen regarding VPIP, and both were regarding a 20% number. I personally have played about 35k hands working up from .5/1 through 1/2 and my figure is just above %13. I can't imagine that playing more hands than this could add any profitability, especailly when multi-tabling. There just isn't enough information for you to make accurate post flop decisions with marginal hands. Who knows, maybe I'm missing out here, but I know that I'm making plenty of money like this, so I plan on continuing in this fashion.

[Yeknom58]

In the beginning most people cold call to many raises and thats why their VP$IP is so high. DO NOT COLD CALL A RAISE WITH A HAND LIKE AJ-X, KQ-Kx. I see lots of beginners making this kind of call and it gets you into all types of trouble.

[jluker7]

yea 25% is to much, kjo and ato should be mucked unless super passive table or late position.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
kjo and ato should be mucked unless super passive table

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be a nitpicker but the big problem with these hands arises when they are up against dominating hands (i.e. AK), not when they are played for a raise (although raises and dominating hands are often highly correlated). Its small/suited cards, which rely on implied odds, that do poorly with a raise. With the best big cards (which KJ and AT will often be) a raise doesn't really harm your hand. So the point is against limpers, be wary at a passive table (especially a super passive table) where it is likely an opponent may have limped in with a hand that dominates your KJ or AT. But in an aggressive game, be much more inclined to come in against limpers (consider raising), as those aggressive players who chose to limp would have raised with a hand that dominates KJ or AT.

[Yeknom58]

20% is likey slighty high for anyone with average postflop skills to make money but 13% for micro limit limp fest tables is way too tight. I'm not an expert but I think a good guess for the sweet spot is likely around 16-19

[BottlesOf]

This is a great point, one that is rarely mentioned.
If anyone new doesn't quite follow, speak up.

[ThrillFactor]

[ QUOTE ]
20% is likey slighty high for anyone with average postflop skills to make money but 13% for micro limit limp fest tables is way too tight. I'm not an expert but I think a good guess for the sweet spot is likely around 16-19

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.