"Unions are Evil"

[Hamish McBagpipe]

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If unions were allowed to only represent employees of a single employer, instead of whole industries,

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The North American industrial relations model has developed where union locals represent workers at the plant level not industry wide, as in Europe, though there are exceptions.

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Now, a relatively few union executives control much more power than the former business owners ever did.

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You think that any union executive has the power that business owners do? At what level? Executives are elected. Owners aren't. I'd say union executives have far LESS power, legislated that way since the 60s, than they used to. But, sometimes, I wish we were back in the days when I could get some muscle to get even with the things that management does every day, heh.

You're right about there being a change in the balance in the employer/employee balance of power. If you think that unions have somehow made the tilt in favour of the worker, I'm flabbergasted.

In solidarity, Hamish.

[Hamish McBagpipe]

There is a thread called Mass defection from the AFL-CIO that became about this topic a few months ago. The link thingy isn't working right now. The thread started 6/29/05.

[theweatherman]

Further more, the unions SHOULD have more power than the owners. The owners should be in fear of the union's ability to close their business. This way the workers are not exploited (at least as little as is possible since every worker is exploited under capitalism) and the owners get their profit margins.

Claiming the unions have power over the owners is ridiculous. If anything the burracracy of large unions have basically sold out thier constituents to the owners.

[Hamish McBagpipe]

"Under federal law, unions in certification elections can lie and make all sorts of promises they have no way of keeping ("We'll get you a wage increase"; "We'll keep them from moving jobs to China"), while those same laws restrict the employers ability to fight back."

Laughably wrong.

"Once unions are in, they have little positive impact and often work harm. Flexible dispute resolution and employer-employee communication are impeded or completely destroyed. Profitability or worker's wages have to decrease to pay for union dues. Employers cannot respond to changing market conditions by freely hiring and firing workers. Strikes wreak havoc on families and are almost never effective in today's world. And most importantly, the working unit changes from a friendly partnership to a hostile divided camp."

Bobman may have become totally delusional, like a rabid, slavering dog, in his quest to complete his studies and enter the real world as a corporate labour relations lawyer/union buster. The brain-washing is complete yet tends to result in oft-repeated meaningless propaganda being spouted. What pamphlet was that diatribe from anyway? You know, Bobman, when there is serious debate in this forum about whether, not to increase, but to actually abolish the minimum wage(!) you definitely have too easy an audience. Out there, people have to live with the other people around them.

In solidarity, Hamish.

[bobman0330]

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Bobman may have become totally delusional, like a rabid, slavering dog, in his quest to complete his studies and enter the real world as a corporate labour relations lawyer/union buster. The brain-washing is complete yet tends to result in oft-repeated meaningless propaganda being spouted. What pamphlet was that diatribe from anyway? You know, Bobman, when there is serious debate in this forum about whether, not to increase, but to actually abolish the minimum wage(!) you definitely have too easy an audience. Out there, people have to live with the other people around them.

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Oh Hamish, if you weren't such a bloodsucking parasite on the body of American industry, your overblown rhetoric would be charming. Anyways, I'm not planning on being a labor lawyer. Not enough money.

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"Under federal law, unions in certification elections can lie and make all sorts of promises they have no way of keeping ("We'll get you a wage increase"; "We'll keep them from moving jobs to China"), while those same laws restrict the employers ability to fight back."

Laughably wrong.


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Sure it is. While I work on finding the Wagner Act cites and NLRB decisions, tell us how many promises you or your unions made to win elections that you failed to keep. (Hint: if you say none, we'll know you're lying.)

[Hamish McBagpipe]

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are unions inherently evil or have they just drifted that way?


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Tragically the average American believes that this is the question rather than, "How can I make the Union at my workplace live up to the ideal we had from the start?" Are they evil through and through or have they just become that way?!? Um, option C please.

The battles can be won and lost on the picket line, legislation goes for and against unions, and arbitrations are won and lost. Unions have failed to continue to educate people about the obvious benefits of unionizing their workplace. Enemies of the working class have managed to pull the wool over the people's eyes with this nonsense about union corruption, union tyranny, etc. Now, when working people need help the most, businesses have actually stepped up this Orwellian campaign.

"With all their faults, trade unions have done more for humanity than any other organization of men that ever existed. They have done more for decency, for honesty, for education, for the betterment of the race, for the developing of character in men, than any other association of men." - Clarence Darrow.

In Solidarity, Hamish.

[lastchance]

Unions good:
You know workers need collective bargaining. Unions are the sole reason why there are safety standards for workers, why employers can't make employees work 80 hours a week.

Unions bad:
QFC pays people $15+ a hour. That's not good. It really decreases competitive edge and costs jobs in sectors like customer service and automation production. Unions are why outsourcing exists.

Workers need collective bargaining, but after a while, the value of what someone does becomes very artificial, and you get outsourcing, among other things.

[tylerdurden]

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Further more, the unions SHOULD have more power than the owners. The owners should be in fear of the union's ability to close their business. This way the workers are not exploited (at least as little as is possible since every worker is exploited under capitalism) and the owners get their profit margins.

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So if a worker is "mistreated" without a union, what keeps him from walking out? Do owners of non-union shops shoot the dissenters? How are workers "exploited"?

[lehighguy]

My mom has been a dues paying union member for DC37 for 6 years. She quit a month ago. Two days ago she got a letter charging her for a hospital visit that resulted from an on the job injury back in April. When she had trouble with her employer she called the union, explained it happened while she was still paying dues, and they told her that it wasn't thier problem.

While she worked there she was also union shop steward until she quit. The office workers made outrageous demands, like 15min smoking breaks every hour. She was so embarrased she just quit.

Even "successful" unions are failures. I'm sure the negotiators for the Delphi guys though they were freaking genuises when they got $65/hour pay for some factory workers. Was it really such a surprise when the company went bankrupt.

Corrupt and incompetent doesn't even begin to describe unions.

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Imagine an electricians union. They screen who can get in. You have to have a level of expirience, pass tests, and prove you know what you are doing. You are then in the union. The union can sell itself as having better quality work and therefore hiring more expensive union workers is a better proposition for the company.

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That would be nice if they actually worked that way. My dad had to recently join the elevator union because they harassed him at every job site he was at when he was non-union. They would say that he was breaking security regulations and other stuff. The truth is they were full of [censored]. My dad has been in the business for 33 years, and he is the 4th generation to work with elevators.

The corrupt leaders of the union offered union membership to several employees of my dad's business and then fired them once my dad was "forced" to join the union. They never wanted the employees, they just want to dismantle any competition. Everyone was hurt except for the top members of the union. The consumer has to pay more for an elevator now because of the oligopoly and workers lost their jobs.

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Most people are willing to pay a little extra for extra quality. Most companies are as well.

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Union quality is usually poor. My dad refuses to higher any union workers because he knows how worthless they are. The union workers have no reason to be good because the union controls the labor supply.