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#1
12-25-2004, 04:46 PM
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best way to extract value with a set
Hi all,
This post is not of a specific hand, but rather a fairly common situation. These are the conditions: You limp with (or are in the blinds) a small pocket pair. MP or LP raises 4x-5x the BB with a 100BB stack. You and another in limper (acts after your) call (also w/~100BB stacks), so that the raiser is now effectively on the button. Flop comes K73r, and you are holding 33. Barring reads, how is the best way to play this MOST OF THE TIME. I am aware about betting it hard on drawing/monotone boards etc.. Specifically, I want to know on a non-threatning board, when you are out of position, against a PF raiser, how to get the most out of a set. Remember, I know "it depends", but for the sake of argument, lets say its been 1 orbit and nobody is out of line. <font color="red">These are the most common lines I see... </font> 1. Bet out roughly 1/2-3/4 pot, get raised by the PFR, and re-raise... 2. Same as #1 but lead for full pot. 2. Check call flop, then go for the C/R the turn... 3. Lead every street, and re-raise if he raises 4. Check call flop and lead turn no matter what comes (stop 'n go) It seems to me the general consensus is that either #1 or #2 is the best option. The most widely used and most easily recognizable is definately #2. I would only use this against fish... Which of these would be your plan in this and similar situations? 
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#3
12-25-2004, 08:14 PM
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Re: best way to extract value with a set
this question is most applicable when playing vs. a tough opponent with good hand reading skills, and then it is difficult as tough opponents tend not to play big pots with one pair type hands, so it will be hard regardless of how you play it.
you really need to get lucky and hope that he has either two pair or top pair, and the board to be draw heavy, as this way he may put you on a draw and bet big to protect his hand, it is much more difficult to get paid with a set when the board is non-threatening, as they tend to immediately give you credit for the set. ok so that being said, when the board is non threating i like to make a weak lead on the flop, then check the turn and hope he bets. if he checks behind on the turn then lead out with a pot size/or slightly larger then pot size bet hoping it will look like a steal. with a draw heavy board i like the check call on the flop and C/R on the turn, as he will often times bet big to force out the draws, and your call on the flop will look less like a made hand due to the draws. remember, there is no rule that every time you hit a set you will get paid off. and good players often can recognize the doyle play of leading with a set. but remember that little "it depends" caveat you brushed aside in the beginning is huge. and the biggest variable in this situation is YOUR table image, that is what your opponent thinks of you. if you have been playing very aggressively then it will be much easier to get paid off regardless of how you play the hand. if you have been playing very tight/conservative it will be much more difficult.
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#5
12-26-2004, 03:01 AM
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Re: best way to extract value with a set
On a non-threatening board like that, you're usually so far ahead that it could very well be to your advantage to slowplay the set. If you know your opponents well, it might be worth sandbagging a bit and letting them catch a good second-best hand, or let a loose-aggressive player bet it for you. You can still get outdrawn, but you'll still have a very high EV.
Otherwise, one of my favorite moves (out of position) is to bet the flop about 75% of the pot. If they call, then check the turn hoping to make them think I was stabbing on the flop. Then usually bet out the river to appear like I'm stealing. If you think your opponents are tough, and you decide not to sandbag, it would be unwise to re-raise or check-raise. These plays give your hand away, and you have a lot more to gain on later rounds by deceiving them now. You DON'T want them to fold. Make 'em think you have a middle pair or top pair trash kicker. If they're tough, they won't pay you off without *something* in their hand anyway, but doing this you might get a lot out of them when they do have a piece.
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#6
12-26-2004, 02:38 PM
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Re: best way to extract value with a set
[ QUOTE ]
this question is most applicable when playing vs. a tough opponent with good hand reading skills, and then it is difficult as tough opponents tend not to play big pots with one pair type hands, so it will be hard regardless of how you play it. you really need to get lucky and hope that he has either two pair or top pair, and the board to be draw heavy, as this way he may put you on a draw and bet big to protect his hand, it is much more difficult to get paid with a set when the board is non-threatening, as they tend to immediately give you credit for the set. [/ QUOTE ] Agree. It's also less profitable when the big raiser is acting after you. In other threads on this forum I've read that it is best to lead bet at least the pot or slightly bigger on draw heavy boards, and less (about 1/2 to 2/3) on rainbow, drawless boards. This applies whether you are leading with the set, a draw itself, an overpair, or pair-kicker (in which it may not be a good idea to lead in the first place unless your kicker is strong). [ QUOTE ] ok so that being said, when the board is non threating i like to make a weak lead on the flop, then check the turn and hope he bets. if he checks behind on the turn then lead out with a pot size/or slightly larger then pot size bet hoping it will look like a steal. [/ QUOTE ] This part fits in with the meta-strategy I summarized above. [ QUOTE ] with a draw heavy board i like the check call on the flop and C/R on the turn, as he will often times bet big to force out the draws, and your call on the flop will look less like a made hand due to the draws. [/ QUOTE ] If you often lead with draws wouldn't leading with a set fit in better? That said, your method is interesting. [ QUOTE ] remember, there is no rule that every time you hit a set you will get paid off. and good players often can recognize the doyle play of leading with a set. [/ QUOTE ] Didn't realize it was a "doyle play". Agree that on drawless boards against decent opponents, it's just hard to get paid off big. On boards with draws, the big pairs (held by skilled players) won't pay off as much, but the draws can crush you (assuming you have other opponents). That's why it seems overbetting "drawfull" boards seems right. [ QUOTE ] but remember that little "it depends" caveat you brushed aside in the beginning is huge. and the biggest variable in this situation is YOUR table image, that is what your opponent thinks of you. if you have been playing very aggressively then it will be much easier to get paid off regardless of how you play the hand. if you have been playing very tight/conservative it will be much more difficult. [/ QUOTE ] Good point. Regards, Rick PS I'm probably not adding much new here. I'm just getting to the point in no limit where I'm beginning to understand what is going on. Of course with the level of play found in the restricted buy in games, I do OK but I'm hoping if I post more (and people blast my mistakes) I can eventually move up. On occasion I'm in a restricted buy in game with 200 to 400 times the big blind in chips (with other opponents who are deep). That's when the game is fun and especially profitable. But I'm not ready to buy in that big in unrestricted buy games where you are far more likely to be up against tough opponents. I'm not tough yet.
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#8
12-26-2004, 07:27 PM
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Re: best way to extract value with a set
[ QUOTE ]
If you often lead with draws wouldn't leading with a set fit in better? That said, your method is interesting. [/ QUOTE ] i don't often lead out with draws, as i do not like to build up a big pot out of position with a draw. i am much more likely to check raise the flop with a draw if i feel i can take down the pot immediately, as the check raise is such a huge sign of strength in deep stack no limit. the times i do lead out with a draw is when i don't mind putting it all in on the flop because my draw is so huge, ie: oesd flush draw. this way if i lead and get raised i am pushing. with just a flush or straight draw, if i lead and get raised i am usually to deep to play back.
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#9
12-26-2004, 11:46 PM
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Re: best way to extract value with a set
yeah - I made this play the other day. I was caught check-raising a draw on the flop that didn't hit - so when I actually hit my set on a TdJd3s board, I stacked off AA when I check-raised the flop and he pushed in for 150 BB. So again, very situation dependant when playing a long session vs. the same people. If I had taken the "standard" line there of leading and reraising, I don't think that player pays me off with a lead, reraise move.
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