Getting too Fancy?

[Michael Davis]

Here is a hand I played in unusual fashion in an $8-16 game yesterday:

I have ATo in the big blind. EP limp, MP raise, CO and button coldcall, SB calls, I call.

Flop: 983 rainbow.

Checked to the button. Button bets. SB calls. I raise...

-Michael

[rory]

I don't really understand what this raise is trying to accomplish.

It can't be to try to win the pot right there because it is extremely unlikely the button and SB are going to fold for one more bet.

It might be a value raise I guess, but I doubt it with this many players, but who knows with the action the way it was on the flop.

It's unlikely your raise is going to get you a free card because the button will call for one more bet with any kind of draw, most likely.

Also some of your outs might be dead-- hitting a 10 makes you top pair, but the SB having a hand like JQ is totally consistent with his play thus far.

I think I would wait for a better spot to try to mix up my play next time-- this flop is too easy for people to call with draws even if there is a remote chance you have the best hand now.

Also fold preflop.

[Steve Giufre]

You are gonna lose money fooling around like that long term. There are six players in the pot, it doesnt look like an ideal time to make a move. Check fold. Your ace might not be an out, and your ten may not be clean either.

[Michael Davis]

FWIW, I think this was the wrong hand to make the play, but its purpose is to clean up my ace outs.

-Michael

[rory]

Michael,

That is what I figured was the purpose of the raise. You should check out Bob Ciaffone's book "Middle Limit Holdem Poker"-- the advice is not so great in some spots, but his discussion of playing with overcards has really helped my game. I used to pull moves like this in bad spots like this too, but that book really helped me identify situations where using these types of moves has more value. Check it out-- I guarantee you you will think about this hand while you are reading and smile.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I think this was the wrong hand to make the play, but its purpose is to clean up my ace outs.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Not worth it. MP probably holds AJ/AQ/AK, and might fold it for two bets, but even then you're cleaning up a two-outer that might not be good when you hit it anyway. I think you need at least a little bit more equity in order to contemplate this, like a gutshot or a backdoor flush draw, and even then I think it's costing you chips in the long run.

Now, if the SB hadn't called *and* Button is aggressive *and* the other players are capable of folding - all of those things could well be true - then we have a much different situation, since you then have a pretty good chance of taking down the pot unimproved, especially if your table image is strong.

[Michael Davis]

I haven't looked at this one in a long time, so I'll review it.

I should have asked the guy who was reading it at my table yesterday for a quick peek...

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

I agree with you. This was a garbage play.

Interestingly, the winning hand was A6o held by the small blind for paired sixes on the turn after the turn and river got checked around. So, I probably had the best hand when I raised, though this was certainly not what I was thinking.

-Michael

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I think this was the wrong hand to make the play, but its purpose is to clean up my ace outs.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

If you thought your ace outs were gonna be dirty on the flop shouldnt you have just folded preflop?

[Michael Davis]

Balkii,

No.

-Michael