TD hand / How's my line?

[Shyam Markus]

Too agro? Any street not seem reasonable?

Hand #12345-2345 at Rye ($2/$4 Triple Draw 2-7)
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Hero is at seat 0 with $207.75.
Player A is at seat 2 with $73.75.
Player B is at seat 3 with $119.25.
Player C is at seat 4 with $72.
Player D is at seat 5 with $211.
The button is at seat 5.

Hero posts the small blind of $1.
Player A posts the big blind of $2.

Hero: Js 6c 5d 8s 2c
Player A: -- -- -- -- --
Player B: -- -- -- -- --
Player C: -- -- -- -- --
Player D: -- -- -- -- --

First Round:

Player B folds. Player C calls. Player D raises
to $4. Hero re-raises to $6. Player A folds.
Player C calls. Player D calls.

Hero takes 1 card. Player C takes 2 cards.
Player D takes 2 cards.

Hero: 6c 5d 8s 2c Qc
Player C: -- -- -- -- --
Player D: -- -- -- -- --

Second Round:

Hero bets $2. Player C calls. Player D calls.


Hero takes 1 card. Player C stands pat.
Player D takes 2 cards.

Hero: 6c 5d 8s 2c 3d
Player C: -- -- -- -- --
Player D: -- -- -- -- --

Third Round:

Hero checks. Player C bets $4. Player D calls.
Hero raises to $8. Player C calls. Player D
calls.

Hero stands pat. Player C stands pat. Player D
takes 1 card.

Hero: 6c 5d 8s 2c 3d
Player C: -- -- -- -- --
Player D: -- -- -- -- --

Final Round:

Hero bets $4. Player C calls. Player D folds.

[fnord_too]

Looks exactly right to me. If the turn goes check check behind I feel pretty silly, but the chance of trapping D for two big bets, and getting an extra bet out of C, makes the c/r easily preferable unless C is just incredibly passive.

[timprov]

Nice hand.

[BluffTHIS!]

While I don't think your play was bad, there is another factor to consider. One of the critcal skills to master in TD is freezing opponents on worse hands when you have a good but not lock hand. Obviously this is usually done in position where you merely call on round 2 and then stand pat after they do as well, and it is much harder to do in front.

It is however not impossible. Had you merely check/called and then stood pat, it is much more likely that one of your opponents who has an 87 will not even consider breaking and drawing, putting you on a rough 8 yourself or a smooth 9. With two opponents one of them could well have a pat hand of some type while the other is drawing. If one of them does then stand pat you will check and call or bet if both draw.

Again I don't say this is perfect advice and depends on the opponents, but the more likely I believe an opponent to be cable of breaking a rough 8 then the more likely I would be to play as I have described.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]
While I don't think your play was bad, there is another factor to consider. One of the critcal skills to master in TD is freezing opponents on worse hands when you have a good but not lock hand. Obviously this is usually done in position where you merely call on round 2 and then stand pat after they do as well, and it is much harder to do in front.

It is however not impossible. Had you merely check/called and then stood pat, it is much more likely that one of your opponents who has an 87 will not even consider breaking and drawing, putting you on a rough 8 yourself or a smooth 9. With two opponents one of them could well have a pat hand of some type while the other is drawing. If one of them does then stand pat you will check and call or bet if both draw.

Again I don't say this is perfect advice and depends on the opponents, but the more likely I believe an opponent to be cable of breaking a rough 8 then the more likely I would be to play as I have described.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to hear fnord's opinion on this, since he seems to be the straight math guy. But I'm almost certain the extra 2BBs are worth the extra risk here.

[fnord_too]

I may do some math on that tomorrow, but my intuitive response is the same as yours, the potential for extra BBs is bigger than the risk. My gut feeling is the only time to really consider that is HU when you have a vunerable hand (and an 86 is not that vulnerable IMO) if a person will definitely break a worse hand and fold if they dont improve to a hand that beats you where they would have called a river bet anyway. If some one is going to break in that case though, I think that makes frequent check raising great with any hand against them.

Here, HU, players are reluctant to break a smooth 9 if they get c/r'd by one of our own since we like to c/r 9's and T's to get people to break [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[randomstumbl]

There's $24 in the pot. If you checkraise succesfully, you'll get $24 more in on this round. If you check/call, you'll get $12.

Granted, the check raise won't always be succesful at trapping the player who's drawing, but you can always decide to just call against the pat hand if the draw folds. So, you're increasing the pot size by one third when succesful; your loss in equity when they break hands is going to almost always be less than that with an 86.

Also, if the player is any good, there aren't a lot of hands he would break when you check raise that he wouldn't break when you stand pat. He might decide to break a smooth nine or a very rough 8, but that's about it. The more willing the opponent is to break, the more you can exploit that later. This is a play that'll pay dividends later (when you checkraise with a bad nine HU).

[Chris Daddy Cool]

bluff is correct in that playing passively will almost always assure you the pot in that you don't give player C a chance to break a worse hand.

however, at this level i dont think its happening that often and also the fact that i think lately (from what i feel) people are more hesitant to believe these types of checkraises as they know 9's are so capable of doing this (maybe its cuz 2p2ers do it relentlessly?). so if that is the case a checkraise here is clearly correct because of the added bb's you can win.

[BluffTHIS!]

If this is the case chris, that they don't give respect to checkraises thinking that a 9 is doing it, then if you did have a 9 in front on round 2, it might be best to play that as well in the same manner I advocated against two other players and check the river, being prepared to call the last player if you think he is snowing after he bricked.